# Did The portuguese Discover N. America BEFORE Columbus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845 "2004-02-18T19:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/21 "2004-02-20T06:44:07Z")
> [@Voodoochile](#): > > Well, not sure why you would need such a thing for something taught in high school, but heres one quick link to Dr. Thor Heyerdahl: > > [http://www.vikingart.com/Mill/Ar\_Thor01.htm](http://www.vikingart.com/Mill/Ar_Thor01.htm) > > - "We in Norway like to think that we discovered Iceland, but Irish monks had settled on the West Coast before we arrived. They did a great benefit to those Norwegians who escaped when King Harold the Fairhair, united Norway from 12 little kingdoms into one country…We have good reason to be happy they did go to Iceland and learn to write Latin from the Irish monks. Thanks to what they preserved in Iceland we have a history to look back upon. \* I hate to have to be the person to break this to you, but Thor Heyerdahl’s writings are not considered “peer reiviewed” scientific research. He’s a pop-scientist at best. Do you know what is considered a scientific (peer review) publication? > [@](#): > > I dont think its any kind of revolutionary thing, its not like its some kind of planned expedition Im talking about. Just the normal probability given the great amount of time and great amount of shipping. Sorry, but again that is not science, but conjecture. Even if I were to concede that it was “highly likely” (and I’m not ready to concede that), it would not be considered scientific evidence, even by the farthest stretch of that term. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/22 "2004-02-20T07:27:35Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I hate to have to be the person to break this to you, but Thor Heyerdahl’s writings are not considered “peer reiviewed” scientific research. He’s a pop-scientist at best. Well, to be fair I think he did very occasionally get published in peer-reviewed journals ( I once ran across a write-up for some presentation on the Galapagos he did at a symposium while searching through the back stacks of _Occasional Papers of the California Academy of Sciences_ in GG Park, not that that was necessarily peer-reviewed, though the original papers published therein are, I’m pretty sure - but, I think he also had at least a couple of early papers in other journals ). He wasn’t a complete quack - almost certainly wrong, but not completely off the scientific track. But you’re right in that he certainly isn’t regarded as a very authoritative cite on this topics, as fun as Kon-Tiki was as speculative adventure. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/23 "2004-02-20T07:38:39Z")
**paperbackwriter** you are exactly right about Cabral’s voyage. You are also correct in that you did ultimately say “across the North Atlantic” to here. But you did open with the statement, **"I’m not expert on this by any means, but I think the supposition that random storms would blow unlucky European or Near Eastern mariners to North American is unlikely."** Doesn’t suggest that the South Atlantic was off limits to Europeans. I do agree it is very unlikely they were “blown” across the North Atlantic. But according to my dad, (old navy man from WW2 and Korea) “It might not blow you across, but it’ll **force** you to cross. Either that or it’ll drown you.” He did NOT like the North Atlantic from what I gather. **BrainGlutton** Yeah, I was just saying that Easter Island is a hell of a long way, even from it’s closest neighbor. AFAIK they could’ve gotten blown to Chili first, then in an attempt to get back home wound up stranded on the island. In any event, it’s not likely they were native. The point was that people have discovered “unknown” lands by accident. So, whatever became of the two Roman shipwrecks found in the Caribbean. I think one was 2nd century off the coast of Brazil and the other was 3rd century found off the coast in Central America? (Maybe off the Yucatan Peninsula) Could be a crock \ for all I know. The Smithsonian supposedly has some relics as does the Brazilian government. I’ve studied maps, currents, depths of land masses underwater, existing islands, changing ocean levels (specifically the Atlantic) at various times in man’s history. If the world’s oceans have risen (some say as much as four hundred feet in the past few thousand years) let’s just say a couple of hundred feet, there would have been at least four or five major islands between Brazil and Africa. Some of these masses can be found even now at certain times of the year. There are also several points where the water is very shallow (25-50’) When these points were above water, some as recent as 200-300 years ago. That’s only a few hundred miles in between islands. They run in a fairly straight line as well. Between the erosion and rising sea levels these old islands (save a couple) are no longer present. I don’t think it’d be that hard to cross under these conditions. Just watch out for the hurricanes. 😉 Finally, I’m not quoting **Heyderdahl** …but AFAIK it’s commonly accepted that the Irish monks were persecuted and did flee in advance of the Vikings. Whether they made it as far as North America is questionable. BTW I’ve been reading a highschool history textbook by coincidence this week. In it this OP is actually addressed and the text presents both sides of the issue. It makes reference to claims that Columbus wasn’t the first (besides Norsemen) \ It claims Columbus knew where he was going and perhaps even had maps, “directions”, evidence or some knowledge left by others before him. It definitely leaves the possibility open for debate. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/24 "2004-02-20T13:38:21Z")
Well the thing I’ve really found interesting is the fact that the Norse coloniesin Greenland seem to have disappeared, right around the time of Cortereal and Columbus. The Norse Greenland colony was actually quite large…at one point there were two monasteries and a Bishop. Anyway, in the 1930’s, a Danish archaeologist excavated the graveyard at Gardar, in Greenland. In the graves he found the bodies of men and women(preserved by the permafrost). The bodies were dressed in the latest european fashions of the 1450’s…so there must have been contact with Europe upto that point. After that, the record goes blank…my theory is that these people migrated to N. America, as the climate of Greenland was getting too cold to permit farming. Whatever settlements these people had in N. America had were probably fishing villages, and so they probably traded with the portuguese (who as I said, were most reluctant to share their secrets with the rest of europe). ---
**Author:** ![the\_first\_supraliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@the\_first\_supraliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_first_supraliminal)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/25 "2004-02-20T15:09:10Z")
The Portuguese did discover South America before Columbus. They knew about the islands off its coast and the flow of the Amazon. But there was no one there to trade with, no decent ports and they didn’t care about colonization. So it was a military matter, not civilian. But they were able to press their clames with the Pope when he “divided the world” so that their discoveries were considered and the corner of Brazil became theirs. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/26 "2004-02-20T15:31:18Z")
> [@Beeruser](#): > > The Portuguese did discover South America before Columbus. Can we trouble you for a cite to back this up? ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/27 "2004-02-20T15:46:23Z")
For detailed information about the history of the Grand Banks fisheries from pre-Columbian times up until the 1980s or so, I recommend _How Deep is the Ocean_, edited by **Carol Corbin**. It’s a fascinating book with several chapters which explain just how the early fishing trade worked and also discusses things like when the fishermen started camping ashore to dry & salt the fish, etc. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/28 "2004-02-20T15:55:43Z")
> [@t-keela](#): > > **paperbackwriter** you are exactly right about Cabral’s voyage. You are also correct in that you did ultimately say “across the North Atlantic” to here. But you did open with the statement, > **"I’m not expert on this by any means, but I think the supposition that random storms would blow unlucky European or Near Eastern mariners to North American is unlikely."** > > Doesn’t suggest that the South Atlantic was off limits to Europeans. I do agree it is very unlikely they were “blown” across the North Atlantic. But according to my dad, (old navy man from WW2 and Korea) “It might not blow you across, but it’ll **force** you to cross. Either that or it’ll drown you.” > > He did NOT like the North Atlantic from what I gather. In the fall and winter, no sane mariner does. I know sub sailors that didn’t like the North Atlantic, and they crossed underwater. 🙂 However, the OP, and my original response, specifically reference **North** America. I guess some _really_ unlucky and _really_ adventurous Portugese or Roman mariner could have crossed the Tropical Atlantic on Cabral’s track and then went north for thousands of miles, but that’s not the original question. The prevailing winds, storm tracks, and currents all make the chance of an accidental journey to North American waters unlikely. I’m really just arguing against the supposition stated by others above that the time and number of journeys somehow guarantees that “some-one” made the crossing there by accident. Even if they did, I privately believe that the Mass. North Shore would have been the last place they might have found themselves. On a more general note, all the pre-Columbian “discoverers” have nothing in their favor except presumption, armchair theory, or at best, ancient stories. _With the exception_ of the Vikings, for whom there is definitive archeological evidence at [L’Anse aux Meadows](http://whc.unesco.org/sites/4.htm). It was the _eddas_ that lead to this archeological discovery, but St. Brendan’s story, for instance, has lead to no corresponding evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Starguard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Starguard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starguard)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/29 "2004-02-20T19:45:17Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > Nope, it was [St. Brendan](http://www.castletown.com/brendan.htm) the Navigator. > > around 500 A.D. St. Brendan? I thought Eddie Murphy and Arsinio Hall Discovered America? They even made a movie about it 😃 ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/30 "2004-02-21T02:42:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*paperbackwriter - “However, the OP, and my original response, specifically reference North America.” \*\* Damn, I must be doing a little selective thinking/reading. You are correct, **ralph** did specify North America, I guess I missed that N. he slipped in there. Like I said before, I just happened to be reading a textbook on this subject and apparently assumed the South would be included. I hereby retract my statements in regard to the OP and apologize for my ignorant assumption that South America was included in this thread. :o Since we are sticking to the OP’s specifications, **Ralph** asked… **"Did the Portugese discover N. America BEFORE Columbus?"** Are we thereby concluding that Columbus discovered N. America? I may be incorrect AGAIN, but I thought he never actually did get to the mainland of North America. He bounced around the islands and landed in South America IIRC. He might have even approached Central America but I recall no historical account or personal journals of him ever setting foot or even sighting North America. Then again, I could be wrong. Y’all ever have one of them days? Weeks…need sleep 😃 ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/31 "2004-02-21T03:26:25Z")
> [@](#): > > “The prevailing winds, storm tracks, and currents all make the chance of an accidental journey to North American waters unlikely.” Funny isn’t it? I think these things _increase_ the likelihood of reaching the northern continent. The prevailing winds and storm tracks from the African Coast cross the Atlantic and into the Caribbean. From there the warm gulf stream currents and tropical pressure force storms north along the Eastern seaboard and back across the Atlantic to Ireland. (I seem to recall a story I read about some place in Nova Scotia or Newfoundland? An island or beach where coconuts constantly wash ashore. Maybe bullshit, I don’t know for sure. I think I’m gonna surf that idea for awhile and see what floats.) If the early explorers had simply went with the flow instead of battling the elements, they would’ve had an easier time of it. Instead they sailed against winds and currents and tacked back and forth travelling even farther distances than if they’d just taken the “long way home”. Granted, they knew about trade winds and used them when they could but they missed out on a lot of good trading along the east coast and the British Isles… \ They couldn’t go by way of England at that time could they? Elizabeth was outfitting her “Sea Dogs” to plunder returning ships from the Americas. I knew I should have stopped after my first post. 😃 Oh well, maybe **ralph** got the answer he was looking for. It’s been fun anyway. ---
**Author:** ![uhluhtcdaerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/48db29/32.png) [@uhluhtcdaerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uhluhtcdaerd)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/32 "2004-02-21T03:32:46Z")
> [@t-keela](#): > > Funny isn’t it? I think these things _increase_ > (I seem to recall a story I read about some place in Nova Scotia or Newfoundland? An island or beach where coconuts constantly wash ashore. Maybe bullshit, I don’t know for sure. I think I’m gonna surf that idea for awhile and see what floats.) Actually, swallows carry them there. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/33 "2004-02-21T04:41:36Z")
**uhluhtcdaerd = dreadcthulu** Whats up w/that? Also, swallows as in birds? I guess I’m just not quite with it this week. Actually I’ve read quite a bit since my last post. Sorry **ralph** for the hijack. But it all seems kinda related. There’s actually a lot of stuff that’s been washed ashore in the British Isles and elsewhere over the years. According to what I’ve read stuff has been arriving from the sea for as long as we’ve kept records. I wonder how many coconuts, canoes, paddles, carcasses, trees, etc. of unknown origin and design washed ashore before someone decide to take a look. The Vikings seem like the type who would seek these things out. Pure conjecture I know and not worth much in this forum, but interesting nonetheless. Actually, I just wanted to know what’s the deal with uhluhtcdaerd/dreadcthulu. Isn’t that name already in use or did I miss the boat again? ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/34 "2004-02-21T15:09:09Z")
> [@t-keela](#): > > \*\* > Also, swallows as in birds? I guess I’m just not quite with it this week. It’s a reference to “Monty Python and the Holy Grail”. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/35 "2004-02-21T15:38:45Z")
Being wishee-washee, I say “possibly”. Of course, the American Indians discovered the Americas first, but being primitive they didn’t know that they had discovered it. The best guess is that they skirted the low sea level coasts in boats from Southeastern Asia to Alaska and down into South America some 20,000 years ago. Blood typings and DNA detective work done today leads back to a oriental origin of the Indians. But then, in the mud of the Oregon River, Kennewick Man turned up…smiling. Big deal, all fossil skulls smile, but Kennewick Man carbon dated at about 10,000 years ago and he was European. This was puzzling. Later someone remembered that the earliest inhabitants of Japan. the Ainu, were Caucasoid so maybe the Kennewick man was Japanese. In this case it might be properly argueed that the Japanese discovered the Americas before the Portugeuese or Columbus. We can only hope the Nips don’t come back and claim the Americas, except for maybe Haiti, San Fransisco, and possibly Cuba. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/36 "2004-02-22T01:14:57Z")
I remember having seen a documentary about the trip made (before Columbus) by a portuguese navigator. From what I remember, the expedition was sent by the king of Denmark and would have reached Iceland, Greenland and _maybe_ North-America. The expedition included too pilots from a german city where some related written records are still kept. Unfortunately I don’t remember anything more precisely, but perhaps some other poster will. ---
**Author:** ![Atreyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@Atreyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atreyu)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/37 "2004-02-22T01:55:49Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > But then, in the mud of the Oregon River, Kennewick Man turned up He was found along the banks of the Columbia River, which forms much of the border between Oregon and Washington. There is no Oregon River in either state, AFAIK. Here’s an [Online Virtual Interpretive Center](http://www.kennewick-man.com/index.html) devoted to Kennewick Man. Google can be your best friend in these parts, **Milum**. > [@](#): > > but Kennewick Man carbon dated at about 10,000 years ago Close enough, I suppose. The carbon dating indicates he lived [about 9200 years ago](http://www.kennewick-man.com/kman/news/story/2883356p-2919368c.html). > [@](#): > > and he was European. This was puzzling. I don’t know where you heard that, but your information is wrong. Examination of the bones suggest [Asian origins](http://www.kennewick-man.com/kman/news/story/2921044p-2956130c.html). > [@](#): > > We can only hope the Nips don’t come back Nips? ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/38 "2004-02-22T02:12:46Z")
I happened to be in a class that got to see some very good full sized copies of the [1507 Waldseemuler](http://www.bell.lib.umn.edu/map/WALD/WALL/indexww.html) map. One of the interesting things about this map is that alot of the west coast of the americas is pretty accurate, especialy since most map makers continuted to stick america onto the back of europe for a good while after this map including Waldseemuller himself in 1507. No one was supposed to have ever been here and they couldn’t have gotten the information from the natives or the information on the interior would be more accurate. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/39 "2004-02-22T05:41:10Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Nips **Moderator’s Note:** **Milum** , “Nips” is well known to be a racial slur. Don’t use racial slurs in Great Debates; in fact, don’t use them anywhere on the Straight Dope Message Board. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845/40 "2004-02-23T00:37:00Z")
MEBuckner > [@](#): > > Moderator’s Note: Milum, “Nips” is well known to be a racial slur. > Don’t use racial slurs in Great Debates; > in fact, don’t use them anywhere on the Straight Dope. Mr. MEBuckner, I don’t use racial slurs. And if the term “Nips” offended anyone, I apologize. Milum. **One Look Dictionary** noun: small sharp biting noun: a small drink noun: a tart spiciness noun: a small drink of liquor noun: a person of Japanese descent [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-portuguese-discover-n-america-before-columbus/229845.md?page=1)