# Did the Romans really train apes to rape women? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071 "2009-02-02T03:07:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/21 "2009-02-03T00:38:04Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Brutus and Cassius are out in the sticks trying to bargain with some Pontic potentate to gain financial backing for their army. The bejewelled potentate practically twirls his moustache as he inquires, “I hear there is a performance where Roman women have intercourse with baboons. I would like to see that!” Cassius clears his throat as he tries to get the conversation back on track: “Um, actually, it’s more of a punishment . . .” Technically baboons are monkeys, not apes. I remember that scene and I thought that Cassius was being sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/22 "2009-02-03T00:42:38Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Brutus and Cassius are out in the sticks trying to bargain with some Pontic potentate to gain financial backing for their army. The bejewelled potentate practically twirls his moustache as he inquires, “I hear there is a performance where Roman women have intercourse with baboons. I would like to see that!” Cassius clears his throat as he tries to get the conversation back on track: “Um, actually, it’s more of a punishment . . .” Is it possible that Cassius was just humoring him and this didn’t actually occur, either in the universe of the television show or in the real world? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/23 "2009-02-03T01:28:49Z")
I’m pretty sure that the anthropoid apes such as gorillas and chimpanzees were unnkown to the Romans. “Ape” in this context would have meant a baboon or macaque, like the Barbary “apes”. The HBO reference cited does say baboon however, and some species of short tailed or virtually tailless monkeys can be pretty darn big. I don’t know what north African or Egyptian species would have been known to the Romans. ---
**Author:** ![Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gam_Zeh_Yaavor)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/24 "2009-02-03T01:46:09Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I’m pretty sure that the anthropoid apes such as gorillas and chimpanzees were unnkown to the Romans. “Ape” in this context would have meant a baboon or macaque, like the Barbary “apes”. The HBO reference cited does say baboon however, and some species of short tailed or virtually tailless monkeys can be pretty darn big. I don’t know what north African or Egyptian species would have been known to the Romans. The Romans knew of at least the existence of great apes, via Carthaginian expeditions into sub-saharan Africa: the account of the voyage of Hanno refers to hairy people called “gorilla,” the pelts of which were brought back to Carthage. Since the Roman demand for exotic animals reached as far as India for tigers, I think it’s fairly likely that at least a few chimps made their way to Rome proper. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/25 "2009-02-03T13:36:32Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > was that something HBO made up for Rome? If this is the HBO coproduction with the BBC and RAI, I bet a biscuit that the whole thing is a complete fabrication. It’s an entertainment show, and does not adhere even to Discovery/History Channel levels of factual accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/26 "2009-02-03T18:19:08Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > [History of zoophilia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_and_cultural_perspectives_on_zoophilia#Roman_Games_and_Circus) Yeah, I’d like to see an ancient reference for that. I haven’t found anyone writing on the Roman games from a Roman historical perspective talking about anything on that scale. ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Norder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@Dan\_Norder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Norder)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/27 "2009-02-03T18:44:06Z")
Looks like a group of Dopers should go salvage that article from bad info. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/28 "2009-02-03T19:28:55Z")
> [@Khadaji's linked article](#): > > Man is the ape, the monkey and the primate with the biggest penis! Homo sapiens is not a species of monkey. Which doesn’t mean that the rest of the article is wrong, but opening like that probably means they haven’t been too rigorous. > [@sailor's linked article](#): > > She used her particular talents to train a German shepherd dog to rape women. Training a dog in this way seems especially implausible. Their body shape, normal method of intercourse (which is not “doggy style”) and lack of dexterity make it very difficult to believe that a dog could have sex with an unwilling female. Actually it’s difficult to believe it’s possible with a _willing_ female, but I wouldn’t like to bet against any such video existing in the torrent realm. (Please don’t link any such video :eek:). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/29 "2009-02-03T19:33:26Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Is it possible that Cassius was just humoring him and this didn’t actually occur, either in the universe of the television show or in the real world? In the show, it’s not just possible but _obvious_ Cassius is humouring the guy to try to get the discussion back on track. He’s visibly bewildered by the question. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/30 "2009-02-03T19:43:27Z")
> [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](#): > > For what reason would they have allegedly done this? Are you kidding? The Romans? “Nail People To Crosses” Romans? “Put Someone In A Bag With A Wild Animal And Toss It All Into A River” Romans? “Feed Him To The Lions” Romans? These were not nice people. Watching apes rape people would probably qualify as “Good Family Fun,” suitable for the kiddies. I’m not saying that they did this Ape Rape Thing, but honestly, if it turned out to be true, I wouldn’t be all that surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/31 "2009-02-03T20:00:04Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Actually it’s difficult to believe it’s possible with a _willing_ female, but I wouldn’t like to bet against any such video existing in the torrent realm. (Please don’t link any such video :eek:). It’s hard enough to do doggie style and even spooning with two willing humans! I can’t imagine an ape or a dog raping a woman in this way. As for Cassius, I thought he genuinely meant it was a punishment and that no one really watched this for fun. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/32 "2009-02-03T20:14:47Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > 1. Women being raped by big cats. I have trouble getting our cat to use the litter box. Getting it to rape on command—that’s something else. > [@](#): > > 1. A ship full of musicians and singers being deliberately sunk, drowning all the entertainers in the process. > 2. Entertainers being killed by armed men in the middle of a performance. That’s just some New York Times critic’s pipedream. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/33 "2009-02-03T20:50:03Z")
Just a reality check - from a physical geometry point of view unless the woman was tied down and positioned “just so” there is almost no chance of any non-human (including apes) animal being able to forcibly copulate with an unwilling human female. I vote shenanigans on this whole concept. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/34 "2009-02-03T20:52:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Homo sapiens is not a species of monkey. Which doesn’t mean that the rest of the article is wrong, but opening like that probably means they haven’t been too rigorous. Any category broad enough to include both the Old World and New World monkeys must necessarily be broad enough to also include the great apes, us included. An Old World monkey is more closely related to a human than it is to a New World monkey. And strictly speaking, I might point out that the Pontic potentate doesn’t actually say it’s rape, just intercourse. Certainly there are women out there who would be willing to consent to bestiality, if the pay were good enough. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/35 "2009-02-03T20:55:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Any category broad enough to include both the Old World and New World monkeys must necessarily be broad enough to also include the great apes, us included. An Old World monkey is more closely related to a human than it is to a New World monkey. > > And strictly speaking, I might point out that the Pontic potentate doesn’t actually say it’s rape, just intercourse. Certainly there are women out there who would be willing to consent to bestiality, if the pay were good enough. Well… [this guy’s married.](http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/10509688/) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/36 "2009-02-03T23:20:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Any category broad enough to include both the Old World and New World monkeys must necessarily be broad enough to also include the great apes, us included. An Old World monkey is more closely related to a human than it is to a New World monkey. I’m not sure how to respond to this. The word “monkey” means old or new world monkey, and explicitly excludes apes. Look in any dictionary you like. The relationship between monkeys and other superfamilies is of no relevance. You might just as well say that we should think of the sun as a planet, since planets like Jupiter are more similar to the sun than they are to planets like Mercury. It’s an irrelevance because the sun does not meet the definition of a planet. The latter part of your post was obviously not addressed at me. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/37 "2009-02-03T23:21:21Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Just a reality check - from a physical geometry point of view unless the woman was tied down and positioned “just so” there is almost no chance of any non-human (including apes) animal being able to forcibly copulate with an unwilling human female. I vote shenanigans on this whole concept. Actually, there is a documented case of an orangutan raping a woman, as told by Biruté Galdikas and repeated in Wrangham and Peterson, “Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence”. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/38 "2009-02-04T00:05:36Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’m not sure how to respond to this. The word “monkey” means old or new world monkey, and explicitly excludes apes. Look in any dictionary you like. > The relationship between monkeys and other superfamilies is of no relevance. Any dictionary?[ > [@Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary](#): > > 1. (Zo["o]l.) (a) In the most general sense, any one of the Quadrumana, including apes, baboons, and lemurs. (b) Any species of Quadrumana, except the lemurs. (c) Any one of numerous species of Quadrumana (esp. such as have a long tail and prehensile feet) exclusive of apes and baboons. ]([http://dictionary.reference.com/search?db=dictionary&q=monkey](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?db=dictionary&q=monkey))In a biology context, monkey can include apes. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/39 "2009-02-04T00:09:47Z")
_Rape Ape Rape Ape_ G. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/40 "2009-02-04T00:09:57Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Training a dog in this way seems especially implausible. Their body shape, normal method of intercourse (which is not “doggy style”) and lack of dexterity make it very difficult to believe that a dog could have sex with an unwilling female. > > Actually it’s difficult to believe it’s possible with a _willing_ female, but I wouldn’t like to bet against any such video existing in the torrent realm. (Please don’t link any such video :eek:). 1- I have no idea what you mean when you say dogs don’t do it “doggy style”. All dogs I have seen did it that way. You need to explain how you think dogs do it. 2- I have seen videos of large dogs fucking women “doggy style” (there’s this thing called the “internet”; I’ll tell you about it another day) and they did not seem to have much trouble. I mean, not as fast as your average college male who is in and out in a matter of a couple of minutes but they did not seem to have much more difficulty with a human than with a bitch. In fact, a female human on all fours cannot run away like a dog can. 3- You force a woman to remain on all fours, either by immobilizing her or by threats and a German Shepherd will fuck her in a matter of minutes without any problem. 4- There have been many reports of this being done in Argentina and Chile during the dictatorships. It is not new. It was reported at the time and has been confirmed later. Both perpetrators and victims have been named. 5- The cite I gave mentions the name of the place and persons who did it and mentions they have not been prosecuted, like many other known torturers. It is not without details which can be checked. Those details have been reported and confirmed by plenty of news organizations and reporters over the years. Search for “venda sexy” and for “Ingrid Olderock” and you will find plenty of cites. > [@](#): > > JULY 15, 1981 - Captain Ingrid Olderock survives a murder attempt by the “Popular Resistance Militia,” which accuses her of training dogs used in torture. I think there is plenty of evidence to convince me that it happened. It may be hard to believe there are people like this in the world but historical evidence shows it takes very little for persons to become monsters. A little authority and the knowledge they can get away with it turns your average person into a monster. It happened in Germany, it happened in Japan, it happened in Vietnam, it happened in Abu Ghraib, it happened in Guantanamo. People will torture for fun. It’s depressing but it’s a fact. The Chilean and Argentine dictatorships committed all sorts of untold horrors and you can easily find plenty of information online. Why would they fly airplanes out over the ocean and dump people into the ocean to their deaths when they could just as well kill them and bury them? I suppose they just wanted to experience what it is like to push someone out of an airplane to their death, or see how a man reacts when his testicles are electrocuted, or a woman raped by a dog. Sadly that is part of humanity. We want to think we are not like that but wars and history prove otherwise. I have no difficulty believing the reports of the Chilean Junta. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071.md?page=3)