# Did the Romans really train apes to rape women? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071 "2009-02-02T03:07:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/61 "2009-02-04T13:42:56Z")
I posted dogs had been used to rape women and as long as someone is contradicting that I feel entitled to affirm it. Don’t blame me for all the cites, blame those who are saying the evidence is insufficient. If someone wishes to continue to deny it I am well entitled to continue to argue that it happened because that is what the evidence shows. I named the victim, Ayress, who is a well-known human rights activist and who has affirmed on many ocassions that it happened. Including in one decalaration used in the prosecution of Pinochet in London. This is not something obscure. It is well-known and there is plenty of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/62 "2009-02-04T13:45:03Z")
psst . . . the OP was about, ya know, Romans? And apes? > [@sailor](#): > > I posted dogs had been used to rape women and as long as someone is contradicting that I feel entitled to affirm it. Don’t blame me for all the cites, blame those who are saying the evidence is insufficient. If someone wishes to continue to deny it I am well entitled to continue to argue that it happened because that is what the evidence shows. Yeah, but could you do it, like, _somewhere else_? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/63 "2009-02-04T13:56:03Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > psst . . . the OP was about, ya know, Romans? And apes? > > Yeah, but could you do it, like, _somewhere else_? My first post was > [@](#): > > During Pinochet’s rule in Chile it was reported they used dogs trained to rape women. If you can train dogs to do it I’m sure you can train apes. Which I think is relevant. Some assert it cannot be done and I assert it _has_ been done and it is relevant to this thread. If that someone wishes to start another thread I will gladly go there but the denials were done here and I feel entitled to respond here. Those who do not want their posts contradicted would do better to not post. If they want them contradicted in another thread, they can take it to another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/64 "2009-02-04T14:13:04Z")
As long as we don’t lose sight of the fact that there is absolutely no evidence for ape-rape in Roman times. The Romans did enough things that were pretty different from what we consider okay now, there’s no need to assume that if an atrocity was possible, they did it. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/65 "2009-02-04T14:16:33Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I guess you missed my post: > I also cited > She is mentioned in _[The Condor Years: How Pinochet and His Allies Brought Terrorism to Three Continents](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/1565849779/)_ by John Dinges (New York: The New Press, 2004) > > But you say you do not want to read or search and anything not in Engish you dismiss beforehand. > > Any human rights organization can tell you what went on in South America during that time. > Read the list of footnotes, references and bibliography on that page. There is no question whatsoever that these things happened. None. They have been widely reported and only a person who is willfully ignorant could deny it. > > Survivors of torture gathered in 1998 > There was a guard, Ingrid Olderock, who trained dogs to rape women. Her favorite was a dobberman named Volodia. \<\\> > > Here is her photo and list of deeds: [http://www.memoriaviva.com/culpables/criminales%20o/olderock\_ingrid.htm](http://www.memoriaviva.com/culpables/criminales%20o/olderock_ingrid.htm) > > More and more information is coming out gradually and it all confirms the horrors: > [Chile and the United States: Declassified Documents relating to the Military Coup, 1970-1976](http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8.htm) > > The place, the perpetrators, the units they belonged to, the victims are all named and it all fits into the whole picture of what was going on in Chile at the time. The repression and torture that took place are well known to any educated person. It was huge. It spanned several countries and was a very concerted effort coordinated by the CIA. How anyone can deny this is beyond me. And again, just because somebody claims that it happened doesnt actually mean something happened. Is there any internal documentation, pictures of the dog raping a man/woman? Any internal memo about how today we had teh dog rape prisoner X? See, there can be dogs onsite in many capacities, guard dog, companion dog, doesnt mean it was used for rape. Winners frequently claim atrocities performed by losers [the whole rome vs the various conquerored tribes saw a lot of false atrocities being reported that are not upheld by archeology, best is the whole carthaginians sacrificing their young] Not that I want to particularly disbelieve that it happened, people are very able to be horribly perverse … but just because people talk about it and claim it happened doesnt mean it did. How about physical documentation? scars from dog claws at the waistline, bite marks on teh shoulders and back? Internal memos from the torturers? ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/66 "2009-02-04T14:28:12Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > [the whole rome vs the various conquerored tribes saw a lot of false atrocities being reported that are not upheld by archeology, best is the whole carthaginians sacrificing their young] Actually, that one’s true - we have archaeological evidence of the Carthaginians sacrificing babies to Ba’al and Tanit. I can get you some cites if you’re interested. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/67 "2009-02-04T15:08:51Z")
> [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](#): > > Actually, that one’s true - we have archaeological evidence of the Carthaginians sacrificing babies to Ba’al and Tanit. I can get you some cites if you’re interested. I’m not doubting you, but I would like to see the cites, please. I will be preaching a sermon, and I wanted to mention some instances of human sacrifice elsewhere. Also, I thought I remember someone or other crucifying his son as a sacrifice to Ba’al - some king or other, IIRC. Does anyone know about that one? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/68 "2009-02-04T15:10:09Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Sailor, there is a reason why hearsay statements are not allowed in court or that statements usually need corroberation, especially those made by the complainant. > > Evidence can condemn a person, not allegations. Remember the bit about Iraqi soldiers and incubators? Thats not [hearsay](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay_in_United_States_law). Hearsay would be if you try to use Sailor to enter in the witness statements. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/69 "2009-02-04T15:11:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I will be preaching a sermon, and I wanted to mention some instances of human sacrifice elsewhere. Also, I thought I remember someone or other crucifying his son as a sacrifice to Ba’al - some king or other, IIRC. Does anyone know about that one? > > Regards, > Shodan Abraham? (D&R) ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/70 "2009-02-04T15:27:42Z")
[The Minoans](http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/15.html) also seem to have practiced human sacrifice. The best evidence is at [Anemospilia](http://www.uk.digiserve.com/mentor/minoan/anemospilia.htm), although there are also children’s bones that look like they were butchered for human consumption at Knossos. Child-sacrifice at Carthage isn’t uncontroversial, but the scholarly consensus is that it happened (Oxford Classical Dictionary 3rd ed. mentions it under “Carthage” and under “Motya”, a Punic colony). As for cites, I’m sorry I can’t give you anything linkable (I don’t know any reliable Carthaginian archaeology websites), but I can give you a few in print: Late Carthaginian Child Sacrifice and Sacrificial Monuments in their Mediterranean Context by Shelby Brown, reviewed in The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol. 55, No. 1 (Mar., 1992), pp. 45-46, and from “Phoenician Religion,” by Richard J. Clifford in the Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 279 (Aug., 1990), pp. 55-64: > [@](#): > > The most famous-or notorious-example of Phoenician religious practice is infant sacrifice. […] It is also abundantly attested archaeologically, although virtually all such attestations come from the colonies. In Carthage as many as 20,000 urns with infant and animal bones were buried in the tophet (the biblical word for such sanctuaries) over 600 years. Some urns contained only animal bones (\*mulk 'immor, “sacrifice of an animal”); the rest contained children or animals and children. All had been cremated. Regular cemeteries > had both cremated and inhumed children’s remains. The practice of infant sacrifice in Phoenicia, Carthage, and Israel has been subjected in recent years to a thorough revisionist interpretation: […] Such revisionism has not gone unchallenged (Stager and Wolff 1984; Smith 1975). One revisionist argument, based on the disproportionately small number of infant burials in the regular cemeteries of Carthage, is that the tophet was a regular infant cemetery; that theory is effectively refuted by the fact that the same disproportion is characteristic of ancient cemeteries elsewhere. Infant corpses were apparently disposed of differently than adult corpses. The practice of infant sacrifice is surely verified for Carthage by massive archaeological evidence. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/71 "2009-02-04T16:19:16Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > And again, just because somebody claims that it happened doesnt actually mean something happened. Is there any internal documentation, pictures of the dog raping a man/woman? Any internal memo about how today we had teh dog rape prisoner X? I think the evidence I have presented is more than sufficient for any reasonable person. Many prisoners agree that it happened, they name the person who did it. They are all identified and many can be located even today. Ayress is a well known activist. If there were any doubts or holes in her story there would be no shortage of deniers using them. A lot of reputable newspapers have carried her story over the years. Why would so many people around the world now conspire to create this lie? How could the get the names of the people involved to be all the same? > [@aruvqan](#): > > Is there any internal documentation, pictures of the dog raping a man/woman? Any internal memo about how today we had teh dog rape prisoner X? Look, if we had the photos and the paperwork you’d claim they were fake. The torturers had a deliberate policy of _not_ keeping records or evidence. Thousands of persons disappeared without a trace. When some indictments were brought against some of those responsible they claimed there was no proof of the killings and disappearances so they were charged with “continued kidnapping” under the legal fiction that those persons were still alive and the accused was responsible as they were the last persons responsible for the lives of those disappeared. Many may have saved their lives due to enquiries from abroad. Like this one on behalf of Ayress: > [@](#): > > [http://www.wcl.american.edu/pub/humright/digest/inter-american/english/annual/75sec3part2/comm1857chi.htm](http://www.wcl.american.edu/pub/humright/digest/inter-american/english/annual/75sec3part2/comm1857chi.htm) > > Washington College of Law > Center For Human Rights and Humanitarian Law > > Communication 1857 (Chile), presented through a communication of July 25, 1974, denounces the arrest and abuse of Ms. Luz de las Nieves Ayress Moreno, 25 years of age, in “Tres Alamos” prison,Santiago, where she is being held. > > In a note dated July 29, 1974, the Commission requested the Government of Chile to provide information on the reasons for the arrest of this individual and to provide assistance to see to it that this individual receives better medical attention. This foreign attention may have saved her life. Many others were not so lucky and were just disappeared. In my view the evidence that it happened is just very clear. Why would so many reporters, media and other sources conspire to promote this particular lie? Again, we have plenty of names and many can be looked up. Last I know Ayress and her husband lived in NYC and were activists in favor of human rights. ---
**Author:** ![dinoboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dinoboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dinoboy)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/72 "2009-02-04T16:21:14Z")
Say, how did we end up in Carthage? Don’t get me wrong, all of this is interesting but weren’t we talking about specifically; Romans, Apes, and unfortunate women? Certainly the Romans did do quite incredible and horrible things to people so buying into this wouldn’t be a stretch. As to whether or not it is physically possible, or even if it would be painful seems, though perhaps possible, likely difficult (as to pain, given the mechanical dimensions involved, the physical pain of penetration by most other mammals on a human seems low – mental anguish and other physical factors; claws, teeth, weight, _etc._ might be less pleasant) But before even discussing all of this possibility I think I’d like to know how we even came up with the original claim… “Romans used Apes to rape women” Are there several, credible sources (besides HBO :)) using a Latin term to mean “rape” as we know it today (“forced sexual intercourse”)? Can that term be translated in any other way? (I am not fluent in Latin but understand that some interpretations can have a range). i.e. Is it possible that this [Latin] term has changed meaning, is an unspecific description of a wild animal attack or similar, violent or unpleasant act? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/73 "2009-02-04T16:23:23Z")
[This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=505005) mentions cases of animals penetrating humans and I remember a funny clip of a guy with his pants down being chased by a horny donkey all over a field. Let me tell you, the intentions of the donkey were unmistakeable. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/74 "2009-02-04T16:31:38Z")
I’m pretty sure there’s no Latin interpretation in play here. There’s nothing in Latin at all to support any sort of ape-rape claim. There’s no specific Latin word that I know of that means rape (in the English sense) in every instance, but there are certainly words that are used, at least occasionally, to denote forced sexual intercourse. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/75 "2009-02-04T16:45:18Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I think the evidence I have presented is more than sufficient for any reasonable person. > … > Why would so many people around the world now conspire to create this lie? How could the get the names of the people involved to be all the same? You keep saying things like this, but none of your links say this w.r.t. the rapes. All I’ve seen, is a single first-hand account, in Spanish, so I have to trust that your translation of this account is accurate. The other links either make no mention of animal rape, or mention it anecdotally, not mentioning the source. A couple say “sexual assualt”, which is a whole different kettle of fish. > [@](#): > > Look, if we had the photos and the paperwork you’d claim they were fake. Try to understand that I have no axe to grind here. I did not work for Pinochet’s regime. I’m just not convinced yet that dog-on-human rape is something that has actually happened. > [@](#): > > When some indictments were brought against some of those responsible they claimed there was no proof of the killings and disappearances… Was animal rape mentioned in anyone’s charges? I obviously know that training an animal to rape someone is not a specific crime in itself, but you’d think it would get a mention in some of the police / legal proceedings. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/76 "2009-02-04T17:10:31Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > You keep saying things like this, but none of your links say this w.r.t. the rapes. > All I’ve seen, is a single first-hand account, in Spanish, so I have to trust that your translation of this account is accurate. The other links either make no mention of animal rape, or mention it anecdotally, not mentioning the source. A couple say “sexual assualt”, which is a whole different kettle of fish. There are plenty of cites in English and in Spanish. From plenty of sources. From reputable sources. You just choose not to read them. If this were not true you might come up with some contradictory cite. But no, you have nothing so you just take the tack of the conspiracists and deniers which is to pretend the evidence is insufficient. Training dogs to rape women? Well, maybe they never actually _used_ them to rape women. It was all make-believe. Cites in Spanish? Me no comprendo. A woman claims it was done to her? Who knows what evil intent she may have. > [@](#): > > Try to understand that I have no axe to grind here. I did not work for Pinochet’s regime. I’m just not convinced yet that dog-on-human rape is something that has actually happened. Yes, in the same sense that some people are unconvinced that the holocaust happened. I don’t sprechen sie deutch either. Too bad. If you had no axe to grind you would not be trying to discredit every cite I post without having any evidence to the contrary. Nothing. Not a single person who has said publicly that Ms. Ayress is a liar who was never raped by a dog. You just find her arguments “unconvincing”. Yeah. Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/77 "2009-02-04T17:21:38Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The link given includes references from 8 dictionaries, all but one of them explicitly exclude apes, and the one that does starts with “In the most general sense…”. > > So…you scrolled through that page, trying to find a favorable definition, and when you eventually found one, you throw it out there like you’re correcting me. Rather disingenuous. You said we could use any dictionary. You can hardly blame someone for following up on it. > [@Mijin](#): > > Most dictionary definitions explicitly excludes apes from the term monkeys. And the one counter-example shown thus far implied it was giving the casual, informal definition of the term. The counter-example I quoted gave the zoological definition. That is neither casual nor informal. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/78 "2009-02-04T17:36:16Z")
The US supported a Roman government that trained apes to rape Pinochet’s dog? Time to move to Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/79 "2009-02-04T18:22:52Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > There are plenty of cites in English and in Spanish. From plenty of sources. From reputable sources. Once again you simply assert that the evidence is compelling. What a pointless post. > [@Pleonast](#): > > You said we could use any dictionary. You can hardly blame someone for following up on it. I didn’t “blame” you, I simply said it was disingenuous. You saw many definitions that supported my assertion, but kept searching until you found one that supported yours (even though it qualifies its definition with “In the most general sense…”). It seems obvious to me that you don’t care about the truth of the matter and just want to win the argument and out-pedant me. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071/80 "2009-02-04T19:09:40Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Once again you simply assert that the evidence is compelling. What a pointless post. It is better than your contradictory evidence which is none. You have no interest in the truth. You are for the defense and all you do is try to poke holes, however implausible, in the evidence presented. You try to find reasons to dismiss everything. I have posted cites in English and you cannot be bothered to read them. Much less in Spanish. You have no interest in truth. Only in the old tactic of “I’m not saying an airplane did not hit the Pentagon, only that I am not convinced”. The victim is alive and AFAIK lives in New York. You can probably easily call her and talk to her or contact the group she works for. But, of course, you would find her “unconvincing”. Nobody else has found her unconvincing enough to contradict her statements. Only you. Well, if the question here is **“Did the Romans really train apes to rape women?”** and the only convincing evidence has to be in the form of photos of the actual events and the actual written orders (no photocopies allowed) of the emperor’s orders plus the paperwork showing it had been carried out, all with mugshots, names, addresses and phone numbers of the victims plus the notarized vet certificates showing these were actual Apes and not merely look-alikes or sound-alikes, then I think we can safely say the answer is NO and close the thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-romans-really-train-apes-to-rape-women/484071.md?page=5)