# Did The Russians COPY the B-29 Bomber? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 23, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251 "2004-11-23T07:33:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/41 "2004-11-27T19:48:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Didn’t some similar reaming of intellectuals and scientists happen during China’s “Cultural Revolution” (or maybe it was the “Great Leap Forward”)?\* I even seem to remember the control of a Chinese nuclear research facility being seized by one of Mao’s crony’s so it could be “run by the people,” or something stupid like that. (Maybe they wanted to show those elitist physicists how a real comrade runs a cyclotron.) It wasn’t quite as open, but yes, the Chinese did it too. Especially during the Cultural revolution, they erased a whole generation of knowledge and scientific skill from their nation - they did such a throough job that it took them until the mid-80’s or so to get back in line with the world, if they even could be said to be there now. These people even sent frikkin architechs to work in the fields, though it later came back to bite them in butt-hocks. There are a suspiciously large number of fancy, elaborate tall buildings in Beijing which have no heat, the water won’t go above the 3rd story, the “front” door’s located in some dingy alley half a block away… As far as I know they finally got some skill back in the design, but the construction work itself is still largely done by people with no responsibility or accountability and no incentive - and there’s no one at all who really organizes it. ---
**Author:** ![KP](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a9adbd/32.png) [@KP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KP)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/42 "2004-11-27T22:54:35Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest - after all, they tried to copy [Concorde](http://www.gizmohighway.com/history/tu-144.htm), without having the luxury of a stolen plane to work from. Actually, the Soviets \ ***did** have a complete set of stolen blueprints for the Concorde, and tried to use it as the basis of the Tu-144. They denied it for decades, but it’s undeniable now. They admitted it in the 90s. We’ve seen their internal documentation. Key surviving figures have testified to it, and many public documentaries have interviewed them about it. Perhaps most convincing of all: French intelligence caught some of them in the act in 1965, and used the captured agent to counteract the damage by (e.g.) passing on false material samples and chemical formulas. I know I should back that up. A Google search turned up a NOVA documentary on the subject. [Here’s the transcript](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2503supersonic.html). I know it’s not the most academic source, but it’ll give you the key names and terms to search for. Let me know if you can debunk it. However, that doesn’t mean that the Tu-144 really deserved its insulting nickname “Konkordski”. As it turns out, the Soviets couldn’t make effective use of the blueprints. Their technology, industrial capacity, measurement and technical conventions, etc. were too dissimilar to those used in or assumed by the blueprints. Having done a fair amount of interdisciplinary science, I can believe that comprehending, recalculating, developing necesary ancillary technologies, and creating an entirely retooled entire mini-industry to use the stolen blueprints could have taken longer than simply designing the most troublesome systems from scratch, using methods and approaches that your own experts understand well. In the end, the two plans had substantial differences in fundamental systems. The french, for example, pumped fuel between the wings to aid in supersonic steering and stability, and used a droppable nose for the subsonic landings. The Soviets added small canard wings to accomplish much the same with a fixed nose. Sorry. I know this is a bit of a hijack, but it’s not entirely irrelevant to the main topic. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3be4f8/32.png) [@Ignatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/43 "2004-11-27T23:55:39Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I also heard once that TOYOTA copied the old Chevrolet 3-speed automatic transmission (the old “Poweglide tranny”). Toyota (supposedly) copied the castings completely-even including the GM markings on the bell housing…they called their copy “Toyotaglide”. Actually, it was “Toyoglide”. The first (1966) of my four Toyotas had it. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/44 "2004-11-28T02:16:53Z")
Not to mention that the Tu-144 actually flew before the Concorde. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/45 "2004-11-29T11:27:14Z")
> [@KP](#): > > In the end, the two plans had substantial differences in fundamental systems. The french, for example, pumped fuel between the wings to aid in supersonic steering and stability, and used a droppable nose for the subsonic landings. The Soviets added small canard wings to accomplish much the same with a fixed nose. The droop nose isn’t for aerodynamic reasons (like the canards), but for visibility. A delta-wing plane has to fly at a high angle-of-attack at slow speeds, and they designed the nose to drop down so the pilots could see where they were going. And the Tu-144 has a droop nose too. I was just in one yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![KP](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a9adbd/32.png) [@KP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KP)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/46 "2004-11-29T12:01:08Z")
I said “drop nose”, not “droop nose”, because the nose of the Concorde “dropped” for visibility in take-off and landing. In cruise, its nose was straight. The original Tu-144 had a “droop nose” that was permanently canted at an angle to the axis of the fusilage. It’s carnard served (in part) to compensate for this permanent droop through (IIRC) the trans-sonic regime, and provided a crucial control and stability in the initial “flat-winged” Tu-144, which had a rather precarious stability at subsonic speeds Tthis was the version which “beat” the Concorde to first flight but to be extensively re-engineered in all later models. The D- revison was the one that first saw actual passenger use [grudgingly] on the Moscow-Alma Ata route) ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/47 "2004-11-29T13:27:39Z")
**KP** , everything I’ve read about the Tu-144, and doing some research just now on the web, says that it has always had the same drop-nose configuration as the Concorde. Also, the canards were not present on the original aircraft. They were added in later versions to improve handling at low airspeeds. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/48 "2004-11-29T15:13:47Z")
I did a bit of research, and it seems that previous posters were right…Russia had FIAT build the Togliattigrad factory. The deal was paid for partly with Russian steel. One problem for the Italians: the Russian steel was hot rolled (not cold rolled, as everyone in the West does). This meant thant the stamping presses (at FIAT’s Italian facyories) had to be re-adjusted to deal with the Russian steel. This lead to problems with the stampings, leading to gaps and increased rusting. The LADAS were exported to canada and the Carribean-you still see a few on the road in Jamaica. I guess their main attraction was low cost-ant canadians Dopers know more? ---
**Author:** ![TBone2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@TBone2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBone2)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/49 "2004-12-02T02:34:54Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I also heard once that TOYOTA copied the old Chevrolet 3-speed automatic transmission (the old “Poweglide tranny”). Toyota (supposedly) copied the castings completely-even including the GM markings on the bell housing…they called their copy “Toyotaglide”. [minor nitpick] Chevy’s once-ubiquitous Powerglide can only be called a “3-speed” if you count reverse. The PG actually had only two forward “gears,” long, sloppy ranges that engendered the nickname “PowerSlide.” Used to buy 'em at the local boneyard for twenty bucks… [/minor nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/50 "2004-12-02T08:46:46Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > As long as this thread will be about Soviet clones of US technology, a lot of the Soviet computer industry was based on cloning successful US designs. One that stands out in my mind is the [ES EVM](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM), the clone of the wildly successful [IBM System/360](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System/360). Information about the 360 wasn’t legally available to the Soviets, so all information used to build the ES EVM was smuggled in. > > [The Red IBM PC Clone was called the ES PEVM](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_PEVM). I guess our blockades were working _really_ well. 😉 Many years ago, multiple people told me a story about a DEC VAX that disappeared during shipment to a customer in West Germany. It just vanished from the train. Supposedly it soon reappeared on the other side of the border. This was not a small computer. It would have had the size and weight of a small automobile. How it was smuggled into East Germany is a mystery. US chip designers use to complain that many Soviet chips were direct rip-offs of American designs, even to the point that they included all of the non-functional elements from the American masks. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/51 "2004-12-02T11:12:49Z")
**mks57** : Yeah, I’m sure the Soviets copied the VAX (in as many of its incarnations as they could manage) and the PDP-11 and any other successful US hardware design. I picked two examples I could find external cites for in a short amount of time. I’m actually more interested in Soviet software design. Were there any homegrown Soviet OSes, or were they simply copying US designs for those as well? I’m sure they would have gotten some UNIX source tapes if they went to the trouble of nabbing PDPs and VAXen, but it’s also likely that their talented engineers managed to write plenty of software of their own. It would be really cool to boot into a genuine kremvax… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/52 "2026-08-03T18:08:53Z")
They didn’t have to steal the Rolls Royce Nene engine for the MiG15, we just sold them one. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2026, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/53 "2026-08-03T22:18:52Z")
Now that the question has been answered (during the first Bush Jr. administration), here’s an amusing example of the Soviet Union unwittingly helping the US build a secretive and amazingly innovative spy plane: [https://simpleflying.com/how-cia-secretly-bought-soviet-titanium-build-sr-71-blackbird/](https://simpleflying.com/how-cia-secretly-bought-soviet-titanium-build-sr-71-blackbird/) ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2026, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/54 "2026-08-17T00:47:32Z")
Now that this thread is floating around again, I get to throw out one of my favorite factoids. The B-29 program cost about 50% more than the Manhattan Project and was the most expensive weapons programs in US history at the time. Manhattan cost about $2 billion and the B-29 project was about $3 billion. However, the B-29 program includes everything from R&D to manufacturing, and obviously the R&D costs were nowhere near that of the atomic bombs. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2026, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/55 "2026-08-17T01:13:52Z")
I don’t know if it’s still there but the Tupelo Veteran’s Museum had a B-29 engine (Wright R-3350 Duplex-Cyclone) on display when I visited in 2022. [![](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczNvIJkJH9lPFhjZulFAABTRXseUXa9rLNYRUnrAvl32hBLuJLDZFkrB7ziYJgj-5SSpE3689EBGyPxdud3s_Aiw-kJdGcj0dFPts3zTVYEsemMNCs9EZVgOD9bZcN7iUaTzfyfJ2opzNW67kHVbpyyvzg=w1061-h795-s-no?authuser=0) ](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczNvIJkJH9lPFhjZulFAABTRXseUXa9rLNYRUnrAvl32hBLuJLDZFkrB7ziYJgj-5SSpE3689EBGyPxdud3s_Aiw-kJdGcj0dFPts3zTVYEsemMNCs9EZVgOD9bZcN7iUaTzfyfJ2opzNW67kHVbpyyvzg=w1061-h795-s-no?authuser=0) Tony the museum owner said he had been offered $100K by the people who owned Fifi, but he turned them down, even after they offered a non-working engine as a trade in. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2026, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/56 "2026-08-17T01:39:11Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > In any case, only one real B-29 still flies (‘Fifi,’ from the Confederate Air Force). I sort of hope that a few Bulls might still be in the air. What about Doc? Or are you just considering those that flew in combat.? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2026, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/57 "2026-08-17T01:44:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What about Doc? Or are you just considering those that flew in combat.? At the time that @Paul_in_Qatar wrote the post to which you replied – he wrote it in 2004 – [Doc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_(aircraft)) was _not_ flying. After extensive restoration, it first flew again in 2016, for the first time in 60 years. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2026, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/58 "2026-08-17T18:25:47Z")
> [@jimmmy](#): > > If you don’t want to register basically he says that the CIA hid a bug in oil-pipeline-control software. They knew that the Soviets would steal it and when they did, the bad code caused the trans-Siberian oil pipeline to be destroyed in a huge explosion. I recall reading - the bad software (pumps causing overpressure and burt pipelines) apparently cut the supply of natural gas to Norilsk, a main nickel supply site, in the dead of winter. It was not quickly repairable, meaning that they had to evacuate someting like 100,000 people by aircraft in the dead of winter, in a place that reaches -50°. The one thing Soviets excelled at was mass action mobilizing all their resources. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2026, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251/59 "2026-08-19T23:11:57Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The B-29 program cost about 50% more than the Manhattan Project and was the most expensive weapons programs in US history at the time. What was remarkable, the US government wanted a new long range bomber so badly they ordered something like 250 of them, before a prototype had even been built, much less flown. And they had serious technical difficulties, as one might expect, by rushing a new airframe and powerplant into production without the normal incremental process. Especially concerning was the habit of the engines to catch on fire. Not only the most expensive single expenditure for the war effort there was a fair amount of skepticism for a while whether they were going to make this thing work, or not. And it _had_ to work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-russians-copy-the-b-29-bomber/276251.md?page=2)