# Did the US secret police fail in its duty of maintaining regime stability during the 2016 election? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2018, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548 "2018-05-21T10:31:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/201 "2018-05-23T14:13:07Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Shouldn’t you be sniffing for Russians in an attic? Yes, that is exactly what a rational and coherent person would say. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/202 "2018-05-23T14:14:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Anyone reading this thread. Yes the jokes are quite cringeworthy. Especially the fourth and fifth iterations. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/203 "2018-05-23T14:18:13Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The victims of police. Never been locked up for causing no harm I suppose? I’ve never been locked up even when I deserved it. And I’m not even a Boomer! Now, where the hell did I put those dillies… ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/204 "2018-05-23T14:19:05Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes, that is exactly what a rational and coherent person would say. Why don’t you go up to Alaska, build an igloo, and keep an eye on Putin for us so we can all sleep soundly. Don’t call until you see the whites of their eyes. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/205 "2018-05-23T14:22:01Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I’ve never been locked up even when I deserved it. And I’m not even a Boomer! > > Now, where the hell did I put those dillies… Of course you haven’t, those walls are padded for aesthetic reasons. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/206 "2018-05-23T14:31:33Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Who is being tortured? That depends on your definition of torture, of course. But I’d make an argument for the so-called enemies of the state in Guantanamo for starters. (n.b. This should in no way be construed as standing in **Farnaby** ’s corner. Broken clocks and all that.) . ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/207 "2018-05-23T14:31:44Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Who is being tortured? Apparently, the deserving. No way to know how that’s determined or by whom. Tinfoil hat wearer is no doubt afraid to ‘say too much!’. Dispute? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/208 "2018-05-23T14:36:22Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Anyone can do it with justification, nobody can do it without justification. > > As opposed to your system where some can do it without justification, and in fact it is in their job description to do so. Do you find torture abhorrent, as a moral/ethical issue? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/209 "2018-05-23T14:38:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Do you find torture abhorrent, as a moral/ethical issue? Please answer this question Will. There is a lot riding on your answer. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/210 "2018-05-23T15:19:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Do you find torture abhorrent, as a moral/ethical issue? Of course. I would never contract with a police agency who used torture. That being said, torture of the innocent is worse than torture of the guilty. So my priorities are to eliminate torture of the innocent, then once that is accomplished, to eliminate torture of the guilty. Do you consider the violent capture of non-harmful individuals and their subsequent imprisonment to be a form of torture? If so, why do you favor a system with outcomes such as these? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/211 "2018-05-23T15:27:03Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Of course. I would never contract with a police agency who used torture. > > That being said, torture of the innocent is worse than torture of the guilty. So my priorities are to eliminate torture of the innocent, then once that is accomplished, to eliminate torture of the guilty. I see no reason that we should prioritize one over the other. No torture, period. And I know you live in an alternate universe, but I don’t see how “contracting with a police agency” makes any sense in the dimension that most humans live in. > [@](#): > > Do you consider the violent capture of non-harmful individuals and their subsequent imprisonment to be a form of torture? If so, why do you favor a system with outcomes such as these? I do not. It may be unjust, depending on the facts of the case, but injustice isn’t automatically torture; even if all torture is an injustice (IMHO). ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/212 "2018-05-23T15:31:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I see no reason that we should prioritize one over the other. No torture, period. So if you had two systems with equal amounts of torture to choose from, one where only guilty violent criminals were tortured and one where innocents and guilty were both tortured, you wouldn’t have a preference? > [@](#): > > I do not. It may be unjust, depending on the facts of the case, but injustice isn’t automatically torture; even if all torture is an injustice (IMHO). Ok, well if you read the link to Rothbard you would find that his “torture” would include this practice, which I hope never befalls you, even if it would change your mind quite rapidly. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/213 "2018-05-23T15:35:28Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So if you had two systems with equal amounts of torture to choose from, one where only guilty violent criminals were tortured and one where innocents and guilty were both tortured, you wouldn’t have a preference? It’s a false dilemma. If I gave you a choice between voting for Hillary Clinton or being justifiably tortured by a police force you “contracted” with, you’re free to say you choose neither. > [@](#): > > Ok, well if you read the link to Rothbard you would find that his “torture” would include this practice, which I hope never befalls you, even if it would change your mind quite rapidly. I am generally adverse to spending much time reading bullshit from crazy people. You may ask why I’ve spent more than 7 minutes reading this thread; and I’m afraid that’s a very good question. But even if someone, including me, is subjected to an injustice, that doesn’t mean it is torture. No more than abortion is murder, taxation is theft, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/214 "2018-05-23T15:41:55Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > We have a team on it. You’ll be amazed what they find. Are they “top men?” ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/215 "2018-05-23T15:43:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It’s a false dilemma. If I gave you a choice between voting for Hillary Clinton or being justifiably tortured by a police force you “contracted” with, you’re free to say you choose neither. No, it’s a demonstration of preference. Either you prefer one or the other, or you are ambivalent. > [@](#): > > I am generally adverse to spending much time reading bullshit from crazy people. Ok then you are missing key context to a discussion you decided to hop into. I didn’t ask you to. > [@](#): > > But even if someone, including me, is subjected to an injustice, that doesn’t mean it is torture. No more than abortion is murder, taxation is theft, etc. Ok but you shouldnt fail to mention that as an agent of the state you are comfortably safe from any state violence, in fact you benefit from it. This is also key context for any readers. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/216 "2018-05-23T15:44:06Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Why don’t you go up to Alaska, build an igloo, and keep an eye on Putin for us so we can all sleep soundly. Don’t call until you see the whites of their eyes. So basically what you’re telling us here is that you’re incapable of understanding the actual issues being considered by the Mueller enquiry and thus have resorted to creating in your own mind this weird cartoonish version of what the concerns over Russian involvement in the US election and current administration are, and are then attributing it to me - despite it bearing absolutely no relation to anything I’ve ever said - in order to make yourself feel better about your own rather dubious worldview. This is why we worry about you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/217 "2018-05-23T15:46:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Do you consider the violent capture of non-harmful individuals and their subsequent imprisonment to be a form of torture? This question fundamentally misunderstands what “torture” is: you imply that whether something is torture depends on whether it’s performed on a harmful or non-harmful person. No: torture describes the act, not the victim. Locking up Mr. Rogers would not be torture. Waterboarding Hitler would be torture. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/218 "2018-05-23T16:25:11Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No, it’s a demonstration of preference. Either you prefer one or the other, or you are ambivalent. Or it is a fatuous question. But way to keep piling up the false dilemmas – first who do you prefer to torture, then either which do you prefer or ambivalence – and I think if you tried really hard, you could come up with another. > [@](#): > > Ok but you shouldnt fail to mention that as an agent of the state you are comfortably safe from any state violence, in fact you benefit from it. This is also key context for any readers. How do you suppose this goes? If I get pulled over from a cop, do you think there is a special “agent of the state” hand sign that I give him that immunizes me from abuse? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/219 "2018-05-23T16:31:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Or it is a fatuous question. But way to keep piling up the false dilemmas – first who do you prefer to torture, then either which do you prefer or ambivalence – and I think if you tried really hard, you could come up with another. > > How do you suppose this goes? If I get pulled over from a cop, do you think there is a special “agent of the state” hand sign that I give him that immunizes me from abuse? You gotta throw the Freemason ‘[mason in distress](http://gnosticwarrior.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Master-mason-sign.jpg)’ hand sign. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548/220 "2018-05-23T17:10:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This question fundamentally misunderstands what “torture” is: you imply that whether something is torture depends on whether it’s performed on a harmful or non-harmful person. > > No: torture describes the act, not the victim. Locking up Mr. Rogers would not be torture. Waterboarding Hitler would be torture. What about my statement about being against the torture of guilty people failed to dispel your confusion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-secret-police-fail-in-its-duty-of-maintaining-regime-stability-during-the-2016-election/814548.md?page=12)