# Did the US spy on our UN "friends"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365 "2003-03-26T20:48:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/1 "2003-03-26T20:48:08Z")
Did the US spy on our UN “friends”? In the **Collounsbury** [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=172697), **yojimbo** pointed me to an Arabic news website, www.aljazeerah.info. While scanning some stories there, I ran across this [article](http://www.aljazeerah.us/Opinion%20editorials/2003%20Opinion%20Editorials/March%202003%20op%20eds/10%20op%20eds/American%20media%20dodging%20UN%20surveillance%20story,%20by%20Norman%20Solomon%20%20aljazeerah.info.htm), apparently from the Jordan Times, by Norman Soloman. > [@](#): > > _Norman Soloman, 3/10/03_ > THREE DAYS after a British newspaper revealed a memo about US spying on UN Security Council delegations, I asked Daniel Ellsberg to assess the importance of the story. “This leak,” he replied, “is more timely and potentially more important than the Pentagon Papers.” > > … > > The NSA memo, dated Jan. 31, outlines the wide scope of the surveillance activities, seeking any information useful to push a war resolution through the Security Council — “the whole gamut of information that could give US policy makers an edge in obtaining results favourable to US goals or to head off surprises”. > > … > > The London Times article called it an “embarrassing disclosure”. And the embarrassment was nearly worldwide. From Russia to France to Chile to Japan to Australia, the story was big mainstream news. But not in the US. > > Several days after the “embarrassing disclosure”, not a word about it had appeared in America’s supposed paper of record. The New York Times — the single most influential media outlet in the United States — still had not printed anything about the story. How could that be? > > … > > The US media treatment has contrasted sharply with coverage of other continents. “While some have taken a ho-hum attitude in the US, many around the world are furious,” says Ed Vulliamy, one of The Observer reporters who wrote the March 2 article. “Still, almost all governments are extremely reluctant to speak up against the espionage. This further illustrates their vulnerability to the US government.” > > … Note: I have just run across this website, and I have yet to determine if it has any credibility. The Jordan Times only offers the previous seven days of articles, so I was unable to find it on their site. However, I did find the article on [alternet.org](http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15318) and [workingforchange.com](http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=14622) (links go to same article as above). So, do you believe that the US government takes advantage of the proximity of the UN Headquarters in order to gather intelligence data to be used to exploit diplomatic efforts? If so, doesn’t that twist the word diplomacy? Should US media be carrying/covering this story, even with no confirmation available from US officials? Lack of confirmation doesn’t seem to be much of a deterent in [other](http://media.guardian.co.uk/iraqandthemedia/story/0,12823,921649,00.html) stories… And a curious question: Anyone seen these reports before? If so, please specify your country. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/2 "2003-03-26T20:54:52Z")
I don’t know about the accuracy of your source, but (and correct me if I’m wrong, someone) I thought we always spy on everyone, friend or foe. So does everyone else. I thought that was just part of the game. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/3 "2003-03-26T21:00:29Z")
[This](http://www.washtimes.com/world/20030320-85033057.htm) got buried (link is to the Washington Times itself, you scoffers), but the bugs found in European Union headquarters last week have been identified as of American origin. Obviously any country with the desire and ability to bug the EU could bug the UN, too. ---
**Author:** ![mrblue92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/4 "2003-03-26T21:04:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalhoun \* > I don’t know about the accuracy of your source, but (and correct me if I’m wrong, someone) I thought we always spy on everyone, friend or foe. So does everyone else. I thought that was just part of the game. Maybe they did not get the memo. US spying on other countries = protecting the world from itself Other countries spying on the US = horrific crime worthy of death Hope this clears things up. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/5 "2003-03-26T21:18:13Z")
**Kalhoun** , I understand your perspective, but do you extend that to suggest that it is a “non-story”, and therefore, not worthy of coverage from US media? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/6 "2003-03-26T22:25:55Z")
> **[GCHQ worker held after leak](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/mar/10/usa.politics)** > > Release of memo reflects deep unease in Whitehall. \*"An employee at GCHQ, the government’s electronic eavesdropping centre, has been arrested under the Official Secrets Act after the Observer published an article based on a leaked US intelligence memo. The Observer reported last week that the US is intercepting telephone calls and emails of foreign delegates to the UN security council. The front-page article was based on a memo written by a senior official at the National Security Agency (NSA), the US equivalent of GCHQ, which advised that the US wanted information on “policies”, “negotiating positions” and “alliances” of security council members. "\* ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/7 "2003-03-26T22:35:08Z")
**ElvisL1ves** ’ [link](http://www.washtimes.com/world/20030320-85033057.htm) covers the bugs found at EU headquarters in mid March. The Guardian/Observer broke the story on UN surveillance by the NSA on March 2nd: [US dirty tricks to win vote on Iraq war](http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,905936,00.html) > [@](#): > > The memo describes orders to staff at the agency, whose work is clouded in secrecy, to step up its surveillance operations ‘particularly directed at… UN Security Council Members (minus US and GBR, of course)’ to provide up-to-the-minute intelligence for Bush officials on the voting intentions of UN members regarding the issue of Iraq. Of course the Administration has denied the memo’s existence, but the story seems to have held up better than the one about Iraq’s Nigerian uranium connection. -On preview, I see that **London\_Calling’s** got a followup story which lends credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/8 "2003-03-27T10:42:09Z")
I’m surprised this has taken so long to get to the boards. It was big thing in Europe, and English broadsheets covered it greatly. I can’t find the link at the moment, but American reporters wishing to write articles on it were discouraged from higher up; unfortunately, the NSA has generally been pretty successful at stopping newspapers from covering its operations. For breaking news about American unethical monitoring of foreign governments and firms, stay up to date at [Cryptome](http://www.cryptome.org). It links to newspaper articles very quickly. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/9 "2003-03-27T11:26:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > Of course the Administration has denied the memo’s existence… [Did they?](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/03/iraq/main542516.shtml) > [@](#): > > U.S. government spokesmen refused to confirm or deny… > > Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer declined comment Monday, as did a (State) Department spokesman. U.N. spokesman Fred Eckhard said, diplomatically, “We haven’t received any confirmation from a member state nor are we aware that any government raised an objection.” Here’s some more: > [@](#): > > …rather than taking offense to the snooping, the Russian ambassador considered it part of the game and the Bulgarian envoy said it was a badge of honor…Stefan Tafrov said there was something akin to a “prestige factor” in being spied on. “It’s almost an offense if they don’t listen…” > > Russian Ambassador Sergey Lavrov expects his phone to be tapped. “It’s a way of life, it comes with the profession, with the job…” > > The deputy ambassador from Chile, Cristian Maquieira, was one diplomat who admitted surprise…"…I think it would surprise some of my colleagues who talk to their girlfriends on the phone." ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/10 "2003-03-27T13:58:10Z")
If we aren’t spyin on our friends, something wqould then be wrong. > [@](#): > > …rather than taking offense to the snooping, the Russian ambassador considered it part of the game and the Bulgarian envoy said it was a badge of honor…Stefan Tafrov said there was something akin to a “prestige factor” in being spied on. “It’s almost an offense if they don’t listen…” Exactly my thoughts. I’d be almost insulted if Russia didn’t have spies in America. This has been the de facto state for the last centuries. Is anyone really surprised by this? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/11 "2003-03-27T14:07:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > Is anyone really surprised by this? Well, ‘yes’ and ‘no’ would be my first reaction… Of course it’s common practice for nations to seek advantage over other nations. Problem here _may_ come in two forms, One: Is it okay to act in this way when it’s not a diplomatic matter as between two nations but (rather) concerning the UN Security Council and binding Resolutions, and, Two: Is there any additional burden on the nation hosting the UN (to play more fairly) …… I’d guess the general US reaction would be ‘Huh ?’ in both cases …. reflecting a different diplomatic style, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/12 "2003-03-27T15:07:26Z")
AtoZCowboy said, “Kalhoun, I understand your perspective, but do you extend that to suggest that it is a “non-story”, and therefore, not worthy of coverage from US media?” Not at all. I was simply saying that I’m not surprised. I didn’t hear much about it, and it sounds like the story has been somewhat squelched here in the U.S. It amazes me that we have the nerve to get all pissed off when people spy on us, but we do it all the time. Evidently we get caught less. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/13 "2003-03-27T15:09:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\* > One: Is it okay to act in this way when it’s not a diplomatic matter as between two nations but (rather) concerning the UN Security Council and binding Resolutions, and, \*\* Sure, if it is ok to practice espionage to protect the interest of your nation it doesn’t matter whether or not it is another single state or the United Nations. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Two: Is there any additional burden on the nation hosting the UN (to play more fairly) \*\* We don’t make them pay their parking tickets, isn’t that enough? > [@](#): > > \*\* > …… I’d guess the general US reaction would be ‘Huh ?’ in both cases …. reflecting a different diplomatic style, perhaps. \*\* I don’t get at all upset when other nations spy on us. I only get upset when we’re lazy with security or betrayed by our own people. I’m not even interested in punishing spies all that much, I’d rather exchange them for any of our spies who are captured. Except in the case of traitors, I want them to serve a long prison sentence. Marc ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/14 "2003-03-27T17:27:31Z")
The only spies I expect to see punished are traitors. Other than that, it doesn’t bother me. I suppose having some spies over here probably makes other world leaders less nervous about America. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/15 "2003-03-27T17:37:01Z")
Wasn’t there a news story a few years ago about a Russian who had managed to bug areas of the State Department? IIRC, we just told him to pack his bags and go home. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/16 "2003-03-27T23:02:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Wasn’t there a news story a few years ago about a Russian who had managed to bug areas of the State Department? IIRC, we just told him to pack his bags and go home. Cool! Good trick. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/17 "2003-03-28T08:25:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*If we aren’t spyin on our friends, something wqould then be wrong. > > Exactly my thoughts. I’d be almost insulted if Russia didn’t have spies in America. This has been the de facto state for the last centuries. Is anyone really surprised by this? \*\* Apples and oranges. The issue here is not spying on another country, but spying on a diplomatic representation. THAT is a violation of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/18 "2003-03-28T12:49:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Apples and oranges. The issue here is not spying on another country, but spying on a diplomatic representation. THAT is a violation of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, IIRC. Everyone raise your hand who thinks that anyone at all respects this treaty by choice. Anyone? Anyone at all? Diplomats have been doing spy work for centuries. Its part of the job. Its not unfair to spy on them, too, treaty or no. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/19 "2003-03-28T13:22:52Z")
I realize that this situation is “illegal”, but I never thought spies actually played by the rules anyway. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-us-spy-on-our-un-friends/164365/20 "2003-03-28T13:23:11Z")
I agree with the poster who stated that the US spying on the diplomatic representations at the UN is a special case. As the host country, the US should at the contrary have a duty to prevent spying to occur there, and at the very least not engage in doing it itself. The USA spying on the EU commission in Brussels is another matter entirely.