Did The USA plan To Use Atomic Bombs On Germany?

[Sailboat]

@Sailboat

To be fair, if someone said they feared the Soviet navy, I missed that. The implication, as far as I understand it, is that they feared the Soviet ground forces hitting them on the continent. Despite the furious island warfare that had preceded this point, far and away the largest and best Japanese ground forces were stationed in China and Manchuria. When these were hit by Soviet forces and crumpled, that meant that they would not be available to shift to Japan to defend against the Americans (or anyone else for that matter). The Soviets didn’t need to get their feet wet to inflict immense military damage on Japan.

@Alessan

But the fact is, they were unavailable since as of early 1945, if not earlier, because the Japanese effectively had no fleet to bring them home with. As far as the defense of Japan was concerned, these forces did not exist.

@TokyoBayer

No, what was left in China and Machuria were a shell of what they started with. The armor was gone and the troops were inexperienced. They did stand to lose all of the land, though (just showing how much in denial people can be) as well as all those men.

Total wars are a bitch.

Looks like I haven’t expressed myself clearly. What was left in China and Manchuria, shell or not, had been from the start of the war considered the finest Japanese formations, and the bulk of the Japanese Army. Since the Army was so influential in Japanese policies, it was the Army itself fearing the destruction of its own main force in continental Asia to which I was referring, not whether it could be shipped home to Japan.

The Japanese Army had been unwilling to fight the Soviets ever since Khalkin-Gol.

I am not asserting that the Japanese feared the Soviet land forces more than they feared atomic (or napalm, for that matter) bombing, just addressing the flawed idea that they feared a Soviet naval invasion of Japan proper.

@tazjet

Japan’s resolve was not crushed by the American Atomic Bombs.

The Emperor’s was, or so he said.

[QUOTE=an actual cite!]
Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.
[/QUOTE]

@tazjet

Japan was working in Korea on it’s own nuclear weapon right to the last minute, but with no viable delivery system.

The laboratory of the 8th Imperial Army laboratory in Konan was the first to be captured by a massive soviet paratroop drop on 22 August 1945. With that gone the Japanese Atomic bomb project was dealt a death blow and japan knew this.

I would be willing to spot Japan two more years on that “project” with total confidence they would not have a workable bomb by August 6th, 1947. It’s entirely possible they would never have been able to develop one, under the conditions prevailing – a lot of electrical power being only one (absolute) requirement that Allied bombing would have denied them. As it stands, they weren’t even remotely close.

@Dissonance

Japan never had a meaningful nuclear program, just like Germany didn’t develop a nuclear weapon your unfounded beliefs aside. And again, Japan broadcast the Imperial Rescript on surrender on August 15th; barring a time warp the activities of August 22 could have no influence on Japan’s decision to surrender.

Yeah.

[tazjet]

@Trinopus

I’m torn between “cite, please,” and “bull.”

Abracadabra:

[tazjet]

@Sailboat

Looks like I haven’t expressed myself clearly. What was left in China and Manchuria, shell or not, had been from the start of the war considered the finest Japanese formations, and the bulk of the Japanese Army.

Rubbish, the Kwantung Army posted a division of Indian deserters from the British Army commanded by Subhas Chandra Bose in Manchuria

[tazjet]

@Sailboat

I am not asserting that the Japanese feared the Soviet land forces more than they feared atomic (or napalm, for that matter) bombing, just addressing the flawed idea that they feared a Soviet naval invasion of Japan proper.

Since I never mentioned Soviet naval invasion of the Japanese home islands but you raised it in reply to me, what you are doing is raising objections to claims I never made and distorting the debate to falsely discredit me.

Japan was not swayed by the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Japan was finally persuaded to give up by the loss of industry and resources in Manchuria and Korea without which further resistance was impossible.

[tazjet]

The very earliest pre-production YB-29 bombers were painted green for the possibility of use in the European theatre of operations. They would have operated from Tibenham had there been a nuclear mission against Germany.

One of these aircraft Hobo Queen flew to England in March 1944 and posed for cameras. It also tested several UK runways, but during this period there was also a German sighting of it overflying Austria.

For a time from July 1944 there was a threat to use a nuclear weapon against Dresden. Hitler ordered the rushed development of a high altitude fighter based on the long nosed Focke Wulf 190D called the Ta-152H.

[tazjet]

In March 1944 a pre-production YB-29 bomber nicknamed Hobo Queen YB-41-36963 was sent from Marietta Georgia USA to RAF St Mawgens in Cornwall via Gander. She was painted ETO green and although the B-29 was a super top secret project the aircraft was deliberately paraded before the press and given maximum news coverage to alert the Germans that it was a high altitude bomber.

Hobo Queen toured several airbases in England during March 1944, including RAF Bassingbourne on 9 March, RAF Glatton Woods on 12 March 1944, RAF Horsham St Faith on 13 March. From Mid March she was stationed at RAF Bovington for trials at least one of which appears to have included an unconfirmed German sighting of her flying high over Austria.

Contrary to the myth about this visit to England the B-29 was neither range nor payload impaired flying from UK airfields over Germany.

It was only later during the Cold War when the B-29 required longer runways to reach Moscow with the Mark IV or Mark IX atomic bomb when this became an issue.

B-29 at sea level requires 1,750 yard T/O run at 140,000lb TOW (20,000lb payload).

Max range with 20,000lb bomb load = 5,374km (2,900nm);
London – Berlin direct 940km;
London – Dresden direct 965km

The RAF class “A” airfield with 2000 yard runways were sufficient for Maximum weight (140,000lb) take offs on missions against Germany. The B-29 was considered for a time in 1944 for an Atomic bombing raid against Germany.

In July 1944 the US Government warned the German legation in Lisbon that unless Hitler abandoned nuclear weapons and somehow sued for peace within 6 weeks then USA would drop the Atomic bomb on Dresden. * Sources: [1][2][3][4][5][6]

Dresden was important from two perspectives. The range to Dresden from London was almost identical therefore any Atomic attack on Dresden was a demonstration of capability to wipe out Berlin too. The other point was that the Plasma physics laboratory in Dresden played an important role in German efforts to develop fissile material for the German Atomic Bomb.

List of sources:

[1] Source: Operation “Epsilon”( 6-7 August 1945) National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, MD, RG 77, Entry 22, Box 164 (Farm Hall Transcripts).

[2] Frank, C. (Ed.) Operation Epsilon: The Farm Hall Transcripts. Berkeley, CA: University of California Press, 1993.

[3] The Farm Hall protocols or the fear of the Allies against the German atomic bomb, Rowohlt, Berlin 1993, p. 153

[4] “Germany and the Second World War” by Bernhard R. Kroener, Rolf-Dieter Müller, Hans Umbreit, Oxford University Press, 2003, page 798

[5]” Virus House,” pub 1969 by Irving, David at page 241

[6] “Oil Production 1944,” pub 1979, by Joseph Borkin

[tomndebb]

@tazjet

In July 1944 the US Government warned the German legation in Lisbon that unless Hitler abandoned nuclear weapons and somehow sued for peace within 6 weeks then USA would drop the Atomic bomb on Dresden.

I suspect that either something has been lost in the retelling or that this report is simply wrong.

You are claiming that in July, 1944, (twelve months prior to the Trinity test, before which point we did not even know that we could successfully set off a nuclear bomb), we were telling the Nazis that they had to take an action within six weeks, after which we would then use a weapon that we would still not know whether it would work for another ten and a half months. If that was true, the Nazis could have simply laughed at us, particularly when, in seven weeks, nothing happened.

The notion that we would hand the Nazis evidence that we were running a bluff when we could never possibly fill our hand is not credible.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

I found The Farm Hill Transcripts on Google Books.

There is no reference to Lisbon in the book. There are references to Dresden. Heisenberg is recounting a rumor he heard.

About a year ago I heard from SEGNER (?) of the Foreign Office that the Americans had threatened to drop a uranium bomb on Dresden if we didn’t surrender soon. At that time I was asked whether I thought it possible, and with complete conviction, I replied “no”. p79

This is very different from an ultimatum to stop making a bomb of their own.

And just one other tiny thing: it comes in a middle of a long discussion of how THEY NEVER MADE AN ATOMIC BOMB.

Allow me to cherrypick all the facts in the world, rewrite them to conform with my personal prejudices, and ignore all contrary evidence, and I’ll prove anything you want.

[md2000]

@JoeyG

If fallout would have gone east, due to prevailing winds, it would have crossed Poland and eventually found it’s way to Russia. Patton may have been OK with this but I doubt the US wanted to fight the millions of PO’ed Russians after they marched to Berlin and saw what the Nazis had done on the way. The Red Army didn’t know about Leningrad and Auschwitz until they got there, then they took it out on the women of Berlin for a month until the Allies arrived.

The concept of fallout was not really understood. Even after the tests in the South Pacific after the war, I recall reading a description of the scientists complaining when the military (old school commanders) were told the sailors were at risk they ordered the sailors in the fallout zone to whisk each other down with brooms to get rid of the dust. They were thoroughly surprised to find Japanese fishermen a long way downwind dying of radiation poisoning.

Before the explosion, I don’t think anyone outside of a few Manhattan Projectionists gave any thought to fallout issues.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

@md2000

Before the explosion, I don’t think anyone outside of a few Manhattan Projectionists gave any thought to fallout issues.

Manhattan Projectionists?

Were they the ones who screened the movies at Radio City Music Hall? I bet they spent a lot of time hoping the Rockettes would fall out… of their costumes.

[Sailboat]

@tazjet

Rubbish, the Kwantung Army posted a division of Indian deserters from the British Army commanded by Subhas Chandra Bose in Manchuria

As usual, neither I nor anyone else has any idea what you mean by this. Finding one questionable division (raised for political purposes) attached to an army does not, in any particular way, reflect on the quality of the rest of said army. Your comment is like saying “there is a piece of paper in Fort Knox, therefore there is no gold in Fort Knox.” I am not maintaining that the Kwantung Army could defeat the Soviets, merely that the Japanese Army (which, with the Navy, dominated Japan’s internal politics) felt threatened by the possibility of its destruction.

@tazjet

Since I never mentioned Soviet naval invasion of the Japanese home islands but you raised it in reply to me, what you are doing is raising objections to claims I never made and distorting the debate to falsely discredit me.

It may not be possible to discredit you, falsely or otherwise, to any greater degree than your own posting does.

As just one example, my quote which you cherry-pick here is part of a longer post in which I directly quote Alessan commenting on an invasion and the passage you cite follows, and replies to, Alessan’s assertion. It chould be crystal-clear I am responding to Alessan and not you; your identity, “tazjet,” does not even appear in the post before I make that reply.

It ain’t always about you.