# Did the USSR provide us with any lessons that aren't in the category of "don't try this at home"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072 "2012-02-16T22:49:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/81 "2012-02-20T05:07:40Z")
The Soviet people beat the Germans. Oh, granted, they used American equipment to do it, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was the Soviets who were out there getting shot at. I don’t think it’s possible to articulate the massive and horrible carnage of the Eastern Front, certainly not for folks like us, but the Soviets survived it and won it. If we Americans faced a similar challenge, with better-organized and better-equipped enemies pouring, say, from Mexico (no jokes now), would we be able to endure? I have no idea; I hope we never have to find out. But the fact remains that the Soviets survived the worst Hitler, Horthy, and Antonescu could give them. The individual sacrifices of the Soviet people in that war are perhaps the highest in the history of the human race. If nothing else, the Soviets showed us that this thing Rush called Bravado - the ability to pay the price without counting the cost - is sometimes worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/82 "2012-02-20T07:37:45Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Oh, probable the same F as Hugo Chavez does to the OP. Next question? No, he had an actual point to be made. You had no point but to Godwinize the thread. You do know the corollary of Godwin’s Law, right? The Godwinizer has de facto lost the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/83 "2012-02-20T08:39:54Z")
> **[Timeline of Russian innovation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_inventions#.C2.A0Soviet_Union)** > > This timeline of Russian innovation encompasses key events in the history of technology in Russia. > The entries in this timeline fall into the following categories: > This timeline includes scientific and medical discoveries, products and technologies introduced by various peoples of Russia and its predecessor states, regardless of ethnicity, and also lists inventions by naturalized immigrant citizens. Certain innovations achieved internationally may also appear in this timeline in cases where the... 1910 on. Dont think all of these qualify, but some pretty interesting stuff. LED’s was a surprise, and spoiling helicopter ejection seats as a joke was one of thier greater crimes. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/84 "2012-02-20T09:36:11Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > When it’s called ‘debatable’ that is usually a sign that it is debatable, which means improbable. > Punishing somebody for voting incorrectly means that the vote was fair; just the repercussions for voting were not good. > Yes, I and everybody who ever read about Hitler knows he was appointed by Hindenberg. I never said Hitler was freely elected, and I hope you didn’t take that from my post. The legally elected Hindenberg, did it constitutionally. So, my analogy works quite well, thank you. > Minor nitpick: Shirer, not Schiller. I’m not sure what kind of point you think you’re making, but I can assure you it’s not supporting your original comparison of Chavez to Hitler. Could you possibly take that assertion to another thread rather than continue to throw things at people in this one? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/85 "2012-02-20T14:16:55Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I think that most of us aren’t really in a position to evaluate things from the USSR – we didn’t get to see or experience most of it. Certainly there were plenty of bad things and inferior products from them, but it’s not as if life there was inevitably awful and in all ways worse than the West. Can we use other ex-communist countries, too, then? East Germany had a system of kindergardens and childrens care far superior to the West. (True: the major aim was to indoctrinate children into the state propaganda and to free mothers for work, but the outcome was a step forward for women’s rights) They also had practical technology, math and metal-working classes at the schools and did away with the three-branch-system that was continued in West Germany after WWII. This lead to a much higher rate of female doctors, engineers etc. and higher rate of education (women who finished their university with a degree) than West Germany. The lack of external products with only a few models produced internally, esp. in the clothing sector, led to a lot more creativity, as people got fabric from the black market and sewed “chic” clothes at home to barter with friends. Because there was no advertisment or competition between brands of food, just one kind of “real” coffee and one type of Ersatzcoffee (and so on), the food was much better - no chemical additives, no flavours, no colours. If you didn’t like it, you didn’t buy it, you didn’t choose between brand A and brand B because B had chemical flavours or looked redder. (The DDR govt. didn’t want to spend important foreign money to import frivolties like artifical flavours, and their own chemical factories had to produce more important other things). Both DDR and Soviet Russia had a stellar reputation for higher education generally. Whether this was hard science like Math (even without modern computers, they were excellent at theory, so after the fall of communism, they could easily transfer to computer language and programming), or soft things like Ballet (there was even a South Park episode where Kenny goes to a communist country to train his voice, because his parents could never afford that in the US). Yes, individual people that were considered untrustworthy because they hadn’t joined the pioneers as teens, or their parents were Church pastors or similar had a difficult time getting a spot in university - but the great masses of people had much better chances at higher education that in the West, and still today. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/86 "2012-02-20T14:24:01Z")
Wanted to add: The nice side of the DDR that many ordinary citizens experienced besides the ugly repression and spying is very nicely illustrated in “Goodbye Lenin” - the protesters didn’T want to get rid of the whole system, just the Stasi and the travel restrictions. (That the DDR would probably not have survived for long after allowing free travel is another question). At the end, the voice-over explains on how much closeness there was in the old system, and how the new capitalist West was so cold and egoist. The stretch of claiming that, with some changes, the Westerners would now rush the DDR to live in nicer society, isn’t that unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/87 "2012-02-20T14:45:14Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Can we use other ex-communist countries, too, then? > > East Germany had a system of kindergardens and childrens care far superior to the West. (True: the major aim was to indoctrinate children into the state propaganda and to free mothers for work, but the outcome was a step forward for women’s rights) > > They also had practical technology, math and metal-working classes at the schools and did away with the three-branch-system that was continued in West Germany after WWII. This lead to a much higher rate of female doctors, engineers etc. and higher rate of education (women who finished their university with a degree) than West Germany. > > The lack of external products with only a few models produced internally, esp. in the clothing sector, led to a lot more creativity, as people got fabric from the black market and sewed “chic” clothes at home to barter with friends. > > Because there was no advertisment or competition between brands of food, just one kind of “real” coffee and one type of Ersatzcoffee (and so on), the food was much better - no chemical additives, no flavours, no colours. If you didn’t like it, you didn’t buy it, you didn’t choose between brand A and brand B because B had chemical flavours or looked redder. (The DDR govt. didn’t want to spend important foreign money to import frivolties like artifical flavours, and their own chemical factories had to produce more important other things). > > Both DDR and Soviet Russia had a stellar reputation for higher education generally. Whether this was hard science like Math (even without modern computers, they were excellent at theory, so after the fall of communism, they could easily transfer to computer language and programming), or soft things like Ballet (there was even a South Park episode where Kenny goes to a communist country to train his voice, because his parents could never afford that in the US). > > Yes, individual people that were considered untrustworthy because they hadn’t joined the pioneers as teens, or their parents were Church pastors or similar had a difficult time getting a spot in university - but the great masses of people had much better chances at higher education that in the West, and still today. This is kind of what I think of when I think of the advantage of communist culture – people in general were regarded as an asset, to be given every chance to develop to their highest potential, instead of massively rewarding the few who excel and treating the rest like unwanted trash, as is the common thread among libertarians and conservatives in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/88 "2012-02-20T15:14:29Z")
At the turn of the 20th century Russia was a place were your birth dictated your station for life, often to immobile servitude. While the ideal of the class struggle didn’t pan out at least the Communist Party made upward mobility possible for driven and clever people. Say what you will about Communists China’s warts, but no nation has ever lifted that many people out of poverty so quickly. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/89 "2012-02-20T16:19:06Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Unless you’re saying that Stalin himself achieved this . . . I say **no system but Stalinism** could have done it. The character of the leader is incidental. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/90 "2012-02-20T16:20:17Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Oh, probable the same F as Hugo Chavez does to the OP. Next question? Hugo Chavez is relevant to the viability of socialism generally, which is relevant to the OP; while your shallow, facile, dishonest Godwinization is relevant to nuttin’ here and nuttin’ there. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/91 "2012-02-20T19:05:34Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > LED’s was a surprise, and spoiling helicopter ejection seats as a joke was one of thier greater crimes. Soviet ejection seats were (and are) very, very good. The K-36DM ejection seat was seriously considered for the F-22 and Joint Strike Fighter, but suffered from NIH (Not Invented Here). The effectiveness of the K-36DM was quite dramatically demonstrated at the [1989 Paris Air Show](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL1FblthxQ0). Right after takeoff a MiG-29 lost power in the starboard engine and the pilot, unable to recover, was forced to eject semi-inverted at 300 feet and hit the ground 100 feet from the crash. Aside from scrapes and bruises he was uninjured. ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/92 "2012-02-21T04:59:30Z")
Even among bolt-action rifles the Mosin-Nagants were simple. But they still worked. ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/93 "2012-02-21T05:28:42Z")
I didn’t see it in the thread, so forgive me if it’s come up and I missed it, but I don’t think anyone has made a point about how good the Soviets were in espionage. And, heck, they made huge strides in the area of performance-enhancing drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/94 "2012-02-21T05:44:13Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I do recall hearing that they also had a flourishing cartoon industry, as well, with some road-runner-esque cartoons. “Nu pogodi!” - [http://www.youtube.com/results?search\_query=nu+pogodi](http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nu+pogodi) You don’t have to know Russian to watch them. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/95 "2012-02-21T13:12:05Z")
**Vibrating Exercise Machines** are the newest rage in the fitness industry (and scream “nerve damage” to us in the safety industry). But one of their touts is that they were developed by for the cosmonauts; and the cosomonauts stayed in space for 420 days, while the astronauts were jellyfish after 120. Still, I can’t imagine Gene the Shamwow guy saying “You know the Russians always make good stuff!” ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/96 "2012-02-21T14:27:25Z")
I don’t have anything great to add to the debate other than to recommend the book [Red Plenty](http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0571225241/ref=as_li_tf_til?tag=redple-21&camp=1406&creative=6394&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0571225241&adid=13DRS6R5N4MFFTQVKMXK&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redplenty.com%2F%2FFront_page_files%2Fwidget0_markup.html) by Francis Spufford. It’s slightly fictionalised, heavily researched vignettes from the Soviet Union in the post war period. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/97 "2012-02-21T15:59:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > [Phage therapy.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy) > More or less what I was going to say. I’ve seen a Russian guy on another forum make that point; centralized planning and authoritarianism is quite good at building an industrial infrastructure, it falls down when it comes to deciding what to do with that infrastructure. Phage therapy was what I was going to post as well. Back at the time it seemed stupid to work on it instead of focus more on antibiotics, but in the 21st century it looks like phage therapy has potential to be a real game changer. (I know that anything scientific everyone wants to claim it could never be a game changer, but I’m just saying “has the potential” not that it will be.) ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/98 "2012-02-21T17:31:51Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > “In Soviet Russia, Soviet Russia evaluates YOU!” You’re a good comrade, **Max the Immortal**! ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/99 "2012-02-21T17:37:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hugo Chavez is relevant to the viability of socialism generally, which is relevant to the OP; while your shallow, facile, dishonest Godwinization is relevant to nuttin’ here and nuttin’ there. We’re married to that Godwinization theme, are we??? At any rate, my missive was in re: the bizarre rant of Hugo’s freely, openly elected, or whatever screed, that was launched. And, socialism is only relevant as a ‘lesson that isn’t in the “don’t try…”’ about as much as a Lada is. The Soviet socialism is a lesson in don’t try this at home. Chavez…totally unrelated to the OP. And free elections??? Give me an effin’ break… ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072/100 "2012-02-21T17:40:46Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > No, he had an actual point to be made. You had no point but to Godwinize the thread. You do know the corollary of Godwin’s Law, right? The Godwinizer has de facto lost the debate. No, his point wasn’t relevant to the OP, and was too tortured a stretch. OK, Hitler was a National Socialist…ergo, MY point was equally valid?? No, socialism isn’t the issue of the OP. What on earth was that lecture about free elections??? You know the corollary to the Corollary of Godwin’s law? Just because you think it’s relevant, doesn’t mean it’s relevant, and a rant means that reason isn’t the dominating force. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-ussr-provide-us-with-any-lessons-that-arent-in-the-category-of-dont-try-this-at-home/613072.md?page=6)