# Did the Vietnam War destroy the 50s culture and values? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2006, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386 "2006-12-16T07:48:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/41 "2006-12-19T01:24:42Z")
All in all, I’d rather be gay in the 70’s on than at any time prior. Same goes for not being Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/42 "2006-12-19T01:33:23Z")
I don’t think it was so much a case of parents taking an active role in their kid’s lives, but also that many of the big problems back then just weren’t talked about. Kids still got abortions and had drug problems, but society was against these things so much that they wouldn’t bring them up. How many people who found they didn’t believe in God talked about it with their parents? One thing that’s better about today is that it’s easier to talk to people about looked-down-upon things, there isn’t so much a culture of silence about difficult issues. Not that it’s totally easy on everything now, of course. Being 20 and British, though, my opinion on American values in the 50’s is pretty worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/43 "2006-12-19T01:41:23Z")
As long as the OP insists on ignoring the extremely _negative_ things that were going on in the 50s, many of which were put on the road to extinction in the turbulent 60s and beyond (a process I admit involved a lot of replacing old problems with new ones), I don’t see how an honest discussion can take place. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/44 "2006-12-19T01:59:29Z")
[QUOTE=ntcrawler] Thank you Jonathan Chance. I realize the 50’s weren’t perfect but had its problems that were slowly simmering and exploded onto the scene in the 50’s. The values I was referring to were things that we take for granted today, such as a family consisting of a mother, father and their children, a family sitting down together to eat dinner and doing other social activities together (board games, trips, etc), people growing up looking forward to having families and being good fathers and mothers (compared to girls and boys just wanna have fun, the free love movement, etc), consumer products being built with pride and being built to last, and people taking steps to be able to do things on their own and in their home insteaf of resorting to spending money they don’t have at the mall for every kind of imagineable service, whereas those things used to be done at home (curling hair, ironing and washing clothes, mending things, etc). The reason why I brought up the Vietnam War was because I do see that as a flashpoint, where the kids coming of age started to see some of the hippocracy of their elders and of their government, and combined with the racism those values lost their meaning and things turned into a rebellion against the system. And BTW, I don’t believe a woman’s place is in the kitchen and that the man is always right and she should be a slave to the breadwinner. I’m not afraid of a strong woman who can speak her mind. In fact, I welcome it! [/QUOTE] You cannot possibly be this naive. First, I’d like to point out one major flaw-back in the fifties, a lot of women DID have to go out to have their clothes cleaned, and most women visited the beauty parlor once a week, at least. So that right there is wrong. Second, you are painting an impossibly rosy picture of a time that has never existed. There was DEFINITELY dysfunction and unhappiness and broken families in the 1950s. You have no cites to back up these assertions other than, “Well, my parents were around then!”, either. ---
**Author:** ![ntcrawler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/34f0e0/32.png) [@ntcrawler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ntcrawler)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/45 "2006-12-19T02:39:54Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] You cannot possibly be this naive. [/quote] Of course not! 😃 > [@](#): > > First, I’d like to point out one major flaw-back in the fifties, a lot of women DID have to go out to have their clothes cleaned, and most women visited the beauty parlor once a week, at least. So that right there is wrong. Indeed. My grandmother was one of those people. However, people also had the knowledge and skills to do the same things and to repair things at home. Second, you are painting an impossibly rosy picture of a time that has never existed. There was DEFINITELY dysfunction and unhappiness and broken families in the 1950s. [/quote] And how does the scale of this dysfunction and the magnitude of those problems compare to today? How many children were tossed into garbage cans or killed and buried in the 50s? How many self-proclaimed vampires and satan worshippers were around in the 50s? How many school shooting and high speed chases and mass suicides and registered hate groups did you have in the 50s? What was the national rate of consumption of hard drugs in the 50s and how does that compare to now? How many court cases were there involving court orders to take down the American flag or purple heart flags or Christmas decorations or ban prayer or peanut butter and jelly sandwiches because it offended some sensitive person living down the street? We can be more open about it now, but compared to the problems we face today I’d say that picture was justifiably rosy. > [@](#): > > You have no cites to back up these assertions other than, “Well, my parents were around then!”, either. A cite for a cite then. Or a parent for a parent 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/46 "2006-12-19T02:58:45Z")
[QUOTE=ntcrawler] How many self-proclaimed vampires and satan worshippers were around in the 50s? [/QUOTE] And how many self-proclaimed vampires and satan worshippers actually go around doing evil? I think what you’re worried about here is _difference_, not immorality. > [@](#): > > How many school shooting and high speed chases and mass suicides and registered hate groups did you have in the 50s? The problem you’re missing out by using registered hate groups here is that there not being as many doesn’t mean there were none; it just means that hateful groups _weren’t registered_. Cultural racism was widely accepted; there was no lack of hate groups, they were just accepted as normal, a far more threatening and immoral affair. > [@](#): > > How many court cases were there involving court orders to take down the American flag or purple heart flags or Christmas decorations or ban prayer or peanut butter and jelly sandwiches because it offended some sensitive person living down the street? And again i’m led to believe you fear difference more than you fear immorality. How many court cases have there been to ban prayer, exactly? Or did you mean stop mandatory prayer in schools? (I’ve no idea what example you’ve got the flag from). > [@](#): > > We can be more open about it now, but compared to the problems we face today I’d say that picture was justifiably rosy. And i’d say you’re still ignoring the major problems of racism, homophobia, sexism, and religious bigotry that were all so rampant then (which still are now, but in general these things aren’t accepted norms, thank god). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/47 "2006-12-19T03:06:41Z")
Let’s see some cites for all of the horrible things you claim are rampant today. Otherwise, why should we believe you, just because YOU say it’s so? And the idea that families were somehow more caring and good to their children is laughable. Oh, and most kids claiming to be Satan-worshipping vampires are simply looking for attention. I suggest ignoring them. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/48 "2006-12-19T05:59:51Z")
> [@](#): > > **ntcrawler** : And how does the scale of this dysfunction and the magnitude of those problems compare to today? How many children were tossed into garbage cans or killed and buried in the 50s? How many self-proclaimed vampires and satan worshippers were around in the 50s? How many school shooting and high speed chases and mass suicides and registered hate groups did you have in the 50s? What was the national rate of consumption of hard drugs in the 50s and how does that compare to now? How many court cases were there involving court orders to take down the American flag or purple heart flags or Christmas decorations or ban prayer or peanut butter and jelly sandwiches because it offended some sensitive person living down the street? We can be more open about it now, but compared to the problems we face today I’d say that picture was justifiably rosy. Five will get you ten you’re a white male. Please tell me where prayer has been banned? Was addiction to alcohol a major problem in the 1950’s? Were children frequently beaten with switches, sticks and belts in the 1950’s? Were they struck by those responsible for teaching them? Was the KKK more active in the 1950’s or in the present? _Rebel Without a Cause_ was about teenagers in which decade? Did women, a majority of the population, have more rights in the 1950’s or in the present? Did minority races have more rights in the 1950’s or in the present? When did the term _juvenile delinquent_ come into common use? When was the film _Blackboard Jungle_ made and what was it about? What did the word _hood_ mean in the 1950’s? I went to about fifteen weddings in the 1950’s and early 1960’s. All of them but one ended in divorce. That’s what became of those sweet-faced and innocent teenaged girls. Someone sold them a big lie. And someone has sold you the same BS. Our country has changed quite a bit in its ethnic makeup since the 1950’s. Keep in mind that “the sensitive person living down the street” can do the following: 1. If you say a prayer aloud to God at school, he can say a prayer to his gods and goddesses also. Are you sure that you want prayers said aloud? 2. If your city government pays to put up a nativity scene on the town square, they can also be forced to pay for symbols of other religions and display them. Your government is not supposed to favor any one religion. Don’t you support the United States Constitution? Good grief, man! That’s basic to America! What kind of patriot are you? And I was _there_ in the 1950’s. I remember it well. I remember people being afraid to speak up and say what they really thought. I remember women being knocked around by their husbands. I remember girls choosing either to be a housewife, a nurse or a teacher. I remember female submissiveness amd lower salaries. I remember women working a job and then coming home to do the housework, take care of the kids, and prepare a meal – while the husband headed for the recliner and the newspaper. I remember that if the husband did any housework he was “helping out” with the housework like it wasn’t really part of his job. Family values? Mom wasn’t valued very much. I don’t think that she even got Social Security back then for the hard work she put in at home. Am I right? If the children of the 1950’s were valued so much, why did they grow up to be so angry in the 1960’s and 1970’s? Maybe they knew their parents valued the wrong things? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/49 "2006-12-19T14:32:08Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What, [this?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populuxe) I dunno, I got mixed feelings about that style . . . it’s like everything was a bowling alley . . . [/quote] Say what you like about it, it’s not deadly dull and boring, like the modernist stuff that replace it. In fact, it has a certain zeal and pleasure in what it can do that just knocks the socks off most other architectural styles. It’s more purely American than any other, certainly more 1960s techno-American. There was also a populuxe school of design that gave us all those cool home appliances like the sunburst wall clock and those weird chairs that were nothing but a wire frame with a sort of hammock built into them, the classic oval glass coffee table, all sorts of cool stuff that looks a lot better and more fun than anything that has come since. > [@](#): > > Examples? Behold the dull, gloomy palaces of the modernists. Would you like to touch my minkey? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IBM\_bldg\_jc01.jpg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IBM_bldg_jc01.jpg) Almost any downtown building built in the 70s would qualify. Also, all those featureless strip shopping center. Form follows function, right down the rathole baby. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/50 "2006-12-19T17:42:06Z")
[QUOTE=ntcrawler] How many school shooting and high speed chases and mass suicides and **registered hate groups** did you have in the 50s? [/QUOTE] You probably should have left out that fish-in-a-barrel target, unless you’re prepared to assert with a straight face that the Klan was no more numerous, powerful, or socially acceptable in 1956 than it is in 2006. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/51 "2006-12-19T17:51:56Z")
[QUOTE=ntcrawler] I’m the son of people who were there, and I also have grandparents who were there, and I’m inclined to believe them that some of the things a typical teenager is able to get away with today that would make for an interesting episode of Jerry Springer would not have been tolerated in the house back then. [/QUOTE] I’m also the son of people who were there, and I’m just as inclined to believe that some things rated relatively severe punishment back then that _no one_ would react so strongly to today – and that certain things we decry were at least tacitly tolerated then. It’s my impression that you could get into a _lot_ more trouble at a typical high school for chewing gum or a hairstyle than you could, say, for habitual bullying. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/52 "2006-12-19T18:05:30Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Behold the dull, gloomy palaces of the modernists. Would you like to touch my minkey? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IBM\_bldg\_jc01.jpg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IBM_bldg_jc01.jpg) Almost any downtown building built in the 70s would qualify. Also, all those featureless strip shopping center. Form follows function, right down the rathole baby. [/QUOTE] Ah, that’s what you meant by “that fricking European shit design.” I was thrown off because I’ve never thought of that as distinctly European, even though I know it had roots in the Bauhaus and Le Corbusier. If you’re ever in a mood for esthetic self-torment, check out the [“Eyesore of the Month”](http://www.kunstler.com/eyesore.html) page of James Howard Kunstler’s website, which displays countless archetypical examples of what you’re describing. This month’s (the new addition to the Royal Ontario Museum, Toronto, by Daniel Libeskind) is exceptionally telling; but don’t neglect the “Previous Eyesore” link at the bottom, you can view a whole archive of archiporn. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/53 "2006-12-19T18:10:20Z")
In regards to school prayer: I was born in 1955. We had teacher led school prayer in 1st and 2nd grade. I was a Protestant in a predominantly Roman Catholic school district and the teacher said the Catholic version of the Lord’s Prayer which ommitted the last phrase. Every day I was faced with the dilemma of continuing on with the prayer and getting strange looks from my peers (and giving them one more reason to beat me up), or not saying the last phrase and thinking god was going be dissapointed with me. I was very glad when compulsory prayer ended. After all, I could pray in church, at home, or silently to myself so why have the school choose what prayer I should say. I’m sure the Jews in my class were even happier, since the Lord’s Prayer is from the NT. Of course back then we didn’t have any Buddhists, Muslims, or Atheists (that I knew of anyway) to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/54 "2006-12-19T18:13:09Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] I’m also the son of people who were there, and I’m just as inclined to believe that some things rated relatively severe punishment back then that _no one_ would react so strongly to today – and that certain things we decry were at least tacitly tolerated then. It’s my impression that you could get into a _lot_ more trouble at a typical high school for chewing gum or a hairstyle than you could, say, for habitual bullying. [/QUOTE] I wonder if any students in Little Rock were disciplined for yelling at, hitting, and spitting on the black kids trying to go to school. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/55 "2006-12-19T18:39:11Z")
On that note, [here’s](http://www.kunstler.com/eyesore_200507.html) what they’re going to put up to replace the World Trade Center. Instead of “The Freedom Tower,” they should call it “Bin Laden’s Triumph.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/56 "2006-12-19T18:53:12Z")
From **BrainGlutton** ’s link: > [@](#): > > What sort of desperate, cringing, soulless employee would consent to work there? I’m reminded of the old tale of the Parisian who came to eat his lunch every day of his working life sitting on the Eifel Tower. Finally someone from a newspaper noticed him and decided to do a story on his love for the tower. The reporter caught him at his next lunch and asked him why he loved the tower so much. He responded, “Love it? I hate this execrable thing. Sitting here is the only place I know where I won’t accidentally look up and see it.” ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/57 "2006-12-19T19:10:12Z")
Just to continue the hijack. To me, the temporary lights they set up at ground zero are still the most poignant use of the site. Imagine a tall, thin, almost invisible tower that pumps out a fine mist illuminated by powerful laser and/or search lights. As a final FU to the middle east we could power the sucker with wind and solar energy. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/58 "2006-12-19T22:37:42Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] On that note, [here’s](http://www.kunstler.com/eyesore_200507.html) what they’re going to put up to replace the World Trade Center. Instead of “The Freedom Tower,” they should call it “Bin Laden’s Triumph.” [/QUOTE] Holy phallic symbol, Batman! That thing’s hideous. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/59 "2006-12-20T01:00:48Z")
Interesting [article](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16287113/) on MSNBC: > [@](#): > > Sex stable since the '50s > Finer said the likelihood of Americans having sex before marriage has remained stable since the 1950s, though people now wait longer to get married and thus are sexually active as singles for extensive periods. > > The study found women virtually as likely as men to engage in premarital sex, even those born decades ago. Among women born between 1950 and 1978, at least 91 percent had had premarital sex by age 30, he said, while among those born in the 1940s, 88 percent had done so by age 44 ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386/60 "2006-12-20T23:22:46Z")
In the 1950’s, my father was punished for wearing a blue tie rather than a black tie to high school. He also got in trouble for writing a paper about _Crime and Punishment_ because, as the teacher said, “I told you to write about a \*great \* book, not a \*Russian \* book.” Elsewhere in New York, my grandfather lost his teaching job and was forced into early retirement due to McCarthy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-vietnam-war-destroy-the-50s-culture-and-values/384386.md?page=4)