# did the whole nine yards issue ever get resolved **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 1, 2003, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376 "2003-03-01T08:45:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jimbotheclown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@jimbotheclown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbotheclown)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/1 "2003-03-01T08:45:40Z")
the original column was right here. [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2\_252.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_252.html) ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/2 "2003-03-01T13:45:19Z")
The most recent thinking, not as yet disproved, is that it has to do with the ammunition belts in WWII fighter planes. The obstacle to that theory is that the term doesn’t appear in print until about 1962 (give or take a year, I’m working from memory)… so, why would a “common phrase” take over 15 years to appear in print? So, it’s still up in the air, unless someone finds an earlier print citation or a different explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/3 "2003-03-01T15:50:27Z")
Dex, has anyone actually ponied up a WWII surplus ammo belt, to see if it’s actually 9 yards long? I tried to do this, but all I could find on line was ammo _boxes_, and without knowing more about the ammunition itself, I couldn’t tell whether they were big enough to hold a nine yard belt. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/4 "2003-03-01T17:14:23Z")
It wouldn’t really matter how long a WWII surplus ammo belt was, because I’m pretty sure I could find literally _thousands_ of things throughout history that were approximately 9 yards long. The earliest reference I could find was from the early 1970s, and it contained no clue whatsoever as to the origin of the phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/5 "2003-03-01T22:59:56Z")
I think a serious argument against the ammo belt theory is, that at the time Cecil wrote the column, no one even seemed to be suggesting it. It only seems to have become popular in the last few years, when the WWII generation is largely gone, along with their slang. If it really did originate amongst the thousands and thousands of WWII aviators, that should have been known fairly early. Look at the feedback Cecil got on “in like Flynn”. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/6 "2003-03-01T23:12:13Z")
Well, we did have a letter from one person who said that his father remembers it from WWII… but when I wrote back asking for more info, could we talk to the father, etc, there was no response. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/7 "2003-03-01T23:49:58Z")
Actually, the current thinking (by people who actually try to find proof for things) is that it has NOTHING to do with ammo belts. The argument is that, if this were a WWII phrase, why would it only appear in print in 1966? And there are more well-reasoned arguments against it than that. It is cited in print only from 1966. There has never been a verifiable print reference to exactly “what” the nine yards means. There are more threads about this on the board than you can read in a sittting, I’m sure. Search for them if you are brave. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/8 "2003-03-02T01:09:21Z")
Sorry but I find a 20-year lag in print references to be wholly unsatisfactory as proof. It could easily take one man’s quip 20 years to find its way into the hands of an author. If the story is true, it needn’t have been on everyone’s lips, just those of the man who first said it. And Czarcasm, I don’t believe there are thousands of things that could reasonably be the source of this expression; the item would have to be something which (1) has a whole of nine yards; and (2) might otherwise be only partially “given.” If the original expression is “Give it (him) the whole nine yards,” then a third requirement would be that the item must be something which is “given” in some sense. A nine-foot ammunition belt would fit these requirements – what else would? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/9 "2003-03-02T01:42:32Z")
Nine yards of cement. Nine yards of fabric to make a men’s suit. Nine yards of fabric to make a kilt. Nine yards run to make a touchdown pass(if said sarcastically). Nine yards of canvas to make a sail. Nine yards of pipe to install a shower and toilet. Nine yards of wiring in a transistor radio. Nine yards of antenna wire to make a decent looped shortwave antenna. Nine yards of (insert what grampa told you here) to (insert the rest of what grampa told you _here_.) ---
**Author:** ![jimbotheclown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@jimbotheclown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbotheclown)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/10 "2003-03-02T02:18:41Z")
could i get the source of the reference, please? ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/11 "2003-03-02T04:34:43Z")
But Czarcasm, all of those are demonstrably false. If we can demonstrate the falsity of the ammo story, then it will belong on that list. If we can’t demostrate its falsity, then it will remain the one story that hasn’t been thoroughly debunked. ---
**Author:** ![jimbotheclown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@jimbotheclown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbotheclown)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/12 "2003-03-02T04:55:32Z")
please don’t misunderstand me, i don’t mean to be so impetuous(sp?), but the \*\*Nine yards run to make a touchdown pass(if said sarcastically) \*\* idea seems plausible enough. true, there are no known citations used like this, but then again, as far as i see, there aren’t for any other either.[ ---
**Author:** ![jimbotheclown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@jimbotheclown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbotheclown)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/13 "2003-03-02T04:59:49Z")
> [@](#): > > i don’t mean to be so impetuous(sp?), but :smack: excuse me. that should say **i don’t mean to be so impetuous(sp?) to say that i know the answer when twenty years worth of thought has come up with naught but theories, but**: ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/14 "2003-03-02T14:06:50Z")
You’re right. The fact that the phrase didn’t surface for 20 years after WWII isn’t enough proof by itself. A good discussion by a professional, Jesse Sheidlower, occured over at the [Maven’s Word of the Day](http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19971128). It’s about as dispassionate as one can be on the subject, and Mr. Sheidlower, currently the Senior American editor of the OED, is one of the brighter lights out there. Sheidlower also brings up the point that the “ammo belt” theory is rather a recent one and doesn’t bode well for the phrase to have been used(common?) in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/15 "2003-03-02T17:06:44Z")
What says that there was anything specific that the phrase originally referenced? We also say things like “the whole shebang” and no-one gets their underwear in a knot about what a “shebang” is and how much stuff constitiutes a “whole” one! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/16 "2003-03-02T17:23:27Z")
We won’t go into the possibilities of breaking “she-bang” down into its component syllables… ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/17 "2003-03-02T20:21:05Z")
What’s the possibility that at the time it was coined, it was just a funny-sounding turn of phrase, and was never intended to refer to anything specifically at all? I’m thinking, for comparison, of the expression, “I’ll buy _that_ for a dollar.” Fifty years from now, are people going to be tearing out their hair, trying to figure out what dollar-priced item was the original source for the phrase? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/18 "2003-03-02T21:17:29Z")
It’s certainly possible, **Cervaise.** But the phrase is so specific – nine yards. A generalized origin such as you suggest would more likely have been “the whole yard” or “the whole mile” or “the whole acre” – such as the term “go the extra mile.” It is also possible that the phrase gained popularity because people related it to American football, even if that wasn’t the origin. In any case, the experts are baffled to date. ---
**Author:** ![jimbotheclown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@jimbotheclown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbotheclown)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/19 "2003-03-04T20:52:11Z")
> [@](#): > > A generalized origin such as you suggest would more likely have been “the whole yard” or “the whole mile” or “the whole acre” – such as the term “go the extra mile.” i don’t really understand this comment C K. did you mean by it that the term ‘go the extra mile’ has no specific origin, it just cropped up as ‘the whole yard’ or ‘the whole mile’ could have just as easily? if so, let me assure you, the term has an origin, and an old one, too. the origin is two thousand years old, give or take a few decades.(mt 5:41) ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376/20 "2003-03-04T21:21:49Z")
**Dex** doesn’t read that section. 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-the-whole-nine-yards-issue-ever-get-resolved/158376.md?page=2)