# Did this alleged military incident actually occur? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 27, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510 "2012-07-27T00:46:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/1 "2012-07-27T00:46:58Z")
A long time ago in a discussion far far away someone made a reference to a particularly horrific incident alleged to have occurred during the Second World War. I saved the passage itself but unfortunately have no idea of its author or its provenance, a google search throws up no leads either. The alleged incident stuck in my mind and I always wondered what it was the author was referring to, or if it happened at all. I do recall that the person who wrote it wasn’t anti-military by any means so it wasn’t intended as such. I apologise in advance for the length and content but its easiest to just post the passage directly. If by some coincendence you _are_ the person who wrote this then no disrespect is intended. "In the Summer of 1943, the German and Russian Armies had faced each other for two years. While the most famous battles raged in places like Moscow and Stalingrad, the Wehrrmacht had also invaded from Finland, then a German ally. Their objective was at first Leningrad, then later to interfere with the flow of supplies from Murmansk. In the end they ultimately failed, but the entire Eastern Front was legendary for its harshness and lethality, and this sector was no exception. The war was closely fought. It was at this time and place that one of the most remarkable and under-reported events in the modern history of warfare took place, an event so ugly that the images of it remain burned in my brain years after reading about it. My source material is long gone, and I am working strictly from memory. Yet I am sure that I am correct, at least in the broad strokes. By some evil coincidence, German and Russian forces of roughly equal combat strength were simultaneously sent to occupy the same objective, a fairly low and anonymous piece of ground. There were as best I recall about 1500 Russians, and about 900 Germans, who were better trained and equipped thus compensating for their lack of numbers. All the men involved were from ordinary infantry units- these were not elite or specially indoctrinated men. They arrived at the same moment, and a sharp battle erupted. Then something truly hideous happened. To this day, no one knows exactly what. But the battle, though really purposeless strategically, became incredibly fierce. Both sides seemed to go utterly mad and lose all sense of humanity. Screaming Germans shot Russian medics trying to treat them, while Russians pulled pistols on Germans and killed them in the act of binding their wounds. Men trying to surrender were burned down where they stood by flame throwers. A terrible bloody rage arose, and the battle, though small, became arguably the most intense in modern history. No one seemingly cared if they survived, as long as the enemy was utterly wiped out to the last man. It was the most pure display of aggression I have ever read of. The men literally screamed in rage as they fought, ignoring cover and everything else but their raw hatred and the most animal of instincts. The soldiers of both nations were utterly reckless of their lives, and utterly merciless. I question wether they were really human for that time, but I fear they were. Both sides pretty much got their wish. There were a total of three shocked and shaken survivors (all German) out of 2400 men. (Russian records confirmed their unit was wiped out.) Other battles have seen one side or the other wiped out with considerable frequency, but only in this one case that I (or the author of the article) know of have two units ever came so close to annhilating each other in modern times. Thank God, the human race has known nothing like it since. That we are capable of such anger is terrifying to me." Anyone know what incident he was referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/2 "2012-07-27T02:39:06Z")
Start here —\> [http://www.combatsim.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get\_topic&f=18&t=000411](http://www.combatsim.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=000411) ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/3 "2012-07-27T05:25:24Z")
It has a taint of urban legend about it. This part is especially suspect: _Screaming Germans shot Russian medics trying to treat them, while Russians pulled pistols on Germans and killed them in the act of binding their wounds. Men trying to surrender were burned down where they stood by flame throwers._ You’ve got Germans helping Russians and Russians helping Germans in the middle of battle, and soldiers trying to surrender, while everyone is crazy with rage.😕 ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/4 "2012-07-27T08:19:53Z")
What a great username/post combo, **Disposable Hero**. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/5 "2012-07-27T12:38:42Z")
Who recounted this story? One of the three surviving Germans? How would they have seen all of those little details, on both sides? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/6 "2012-07-27T13:11:19Z")
Why are medics treating soldiers on the other side if everyone is blind with rage? ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/7 "2012-07-27T13:19:03Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > It has a taint of urban legend about it. This part is especially suspect: > > _Screaming Germans shot Russian medics trying to treat them, while Russians pulled pistols on Germans and killed them in the act of binding their wounds. Men trying to surrender were burned down where they stood by flame throwers._ > > You’ve got Germans helping Russians and Russians helping Germans in the middle of battle, and soldiers trying to surrender, while everyone is crazy with rage.😕 The part about Russians pulling out pistols really doesn’t sound very plausible either, since sidearms were only issued to Red Army officers. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/8 "2012-07-27T13:50:02Z")
Leaving aside the valid concerns about this particular incident’s historical veracity, it’s unfortunately not as uncommon as you seem to think for mind-boggling savagery to dehumanize men on the battlefield. A historian quoted in a documentary program about Hannibal’s victory at Cannae described the famous “double envelopment” by which the Romans were surrounded. Although the Romans were completely trapped, the Carthaginians still had to physically _kill_ them – there was no question or intention of taking prisoners – the physical effort of dismembering all those individuals by hand-strokes. The historian concluded, “And then it’s just a question of how long it takes to slaughter seventy thousand human beings. And the answer is, about six hours.” For a more modern case of the horrors of war, how about Spotsylvania Court House in the US Civil War? Casual Googling does not seem to go into the horrible details I have read, but it was really bestial. I will try to get a quote from Foote or Catton later on. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/9 "2012-07-27T14:04:32Z")
Any time I see someone referring to Soviet soldiers as “Russians” I immediately disregard anything else they might have to say. If they can’t even get that right, then I have no reason to believe they’d be right about anything else either. ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/10 "2012-07-27T14:11:31Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > For a more modern case of the horrors of war, how about Spotsylvania Court House in the US Civil War? Casual Googling does not seem to go into the horrible details I have read, but it was really bestial. I will try to get a quote from Foote or Catton later on. I thought of this as well. I think it relates to the “Bloody Angle”. Survivors recalled that they literally “saw red” & had no other thought than to kill the enemy. It seems to have affected both sides. Soldiers were climbing over dead & wounded comrades to get at each other. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/11 "2012-07-27T14:35:52Z")
I read a shocking little statistic about WWII’s brutality just last night. China and Japan were at war for over eight years. Over five million Chinese soldiers fought in the war. When Japan surrendered in 1945, they released all the POW’s they had. Fifty-six Chinese POW’s were released. ---
**Author:** ![Any\_Other\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Any\_Other\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Any_Other_Name)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/12 "2012-07-27T18:48:17Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > For a more modern case of the horrors of war, how about Spotsylvania Court House in the US Civil War? Casual Googling does not seem to go into the horrible details I have read, but it was really bestial. I will try to get a quote from Foote or Catton later on. > [@wedgehed](#): > > I thought of this as well. I think it relates to the “Bloody Angle”. Survivors recalled that they literally “saw red” & had no other thought than to kill the enemy. It seems to have affected both sides. Soldiers were climbing over dead & wounded comrades to get at each other. There’s some detail on the [nps.gov site](http://www.nps.gov/frsp/wildspot.htm). I’ll have to look this up at home later. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Hand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b3f665/32.png) [@Peter\_Hand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Hand)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/13 "2012-07-28T16:13:37Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Any time I see someone referring to Soviet soldiers as “Russians” I immediately disregard anything else they might have to say. If they can’t even get that right, then I have no reason to believe they’d be right about anything else either. Your distrust is misplaced. Europeans, especially Aryan Germans of that time, did not think in political terms (Soviet) but in ethnic terms (Russian). They knew the difference between a Czech and a Slovac despite the name of the country. Most of us in the U.S. can think of ourselves as Americans but many still cling to their heritage as Irish, Italian, Jewish, etc. It may come that someday we can think of others in terms of their political connections alone but history and human nature seem to dictate otherwise. A Visigoth would understand he was not an Ostrogoth but both might cling to their Gothic heritage when dealing with the Romans. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/14 "2012-07-28T16:36:43Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Any time I see someone referring to Soviet soldiers as “Russians” I immediately disregard anything else they might have to say. If they can’t even get that right, then I have no reason to believe they’d be right about anything else either. And U.S. soldiers who fought in Korea must be referred to as UNs. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/15 "2012-07-28T16:54:45Z")
> [@Peter\_Hand](#): > > Your distrust is misplaced. Europeans, especially Aryan Germans of that time, did not think in political terms (Soviet) but in ethnic terms (Russian). They knew the difference between a Czech and a Slovac despite the name of the country. Most of us in the U.S. can think of ourselves as Americans but many still cling to their heritage as Irish, Italian, Jewish, etc. It may come that someday we can think of others in terms of their political connections alone but history and human nature seem to dictate otherwise. A Visigoth would understand he was not an Ostrogoth but both might cling to their Gothic heritage when dealing with the Romans. I’m not in the US, and I’m not American. And having met quite a few people from various former Soviet Republics, and I’d say every singe one of them would be annoyed at being called “Russian” except for the ones that are actual Russians. Some would be greatly offended. Assumptions: They can give offence. Best avoided by, you know, actually finding out the facts _before_ you start telling people what nationality they are. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/16 "2012-07-28T16:58:35Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > And U.S. soldiers who fought in Korea must be referred to as UNs. All Americans are the same nationality, not all Soviet citizens were Russians. Would you assume that all Americans are white people of British ancestry? Because that’s the exact same level of stupid as calling all the peoples of the former Soviet Republics “Russians”. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/17 "2012-07-28T17:08:19Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > All Americans are the same nationality, not all Soviet citizens were Russians. > > Would you assume that all Americans are white people of British ancestry? Because that’s the exact same level of stupid as calling all the peoples of the former Soviet Republics “Russians”. Americans, British, Canadians, Australians and others fought in Korea under the United Nations. Therefore, using your logic, Americans must be called UNs. By the way, this isn’t the pit. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/18 "2012-07-28T17:15:05Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I’m not in the US, and I’m not American. > > And having met quite a few people from various former Soviet Republics, and I’d say every singe one of them would be annoyed at being called “Russian” except for the ones that are actual Russians. Some would be greatly offended. > > Assumptions: They can give offence. Best avoided by, you know, actually finding out the facts _before_ you start telling people what nationality they are. nm ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/19 "2012-07-28T17:43:06Z")
The story reeks of urban legend, and the Eastern Front was horrible enough as it was. > [@Shakester](#): > > Any time I see someone referring to Soviet soldiers as “Russians” I immediately disregard anything else they might have to say. If they can’t even get that right, then I have no reason to believe they’d be right about anything else either. Not a terribly wise thing to do. A search of [\*Stalingrad to Berlin: The German Defeat in the East \*](http://books.google.com/books?id=Pr6HhrecbZ8C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=Russian&f=false) by Earl F. Ziemke gives 100 hits for the word “Russian”, David M. Glantz’s [_To the gates of Stalingrad:Soviet-German combat Operations, April-August 1942_](http://books.google.com/books?id=5ewLAQAAMAAJ&q=Russian) 65 hits and John Ericksons’s [_The Road to Berlin: Stalin`s War with Germany, Volume Two_](http://books.google.com/books?id=6UaU6ZLqK4UC&q=Russian#v=snippet&q=Russian&f=false) 83 hits. None of them are exactly lightweights on the history of the Eastern Front. ---
**Author:** ![Blkshp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blkshp/32/7135_2.png) [@Blkshp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blkshp)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510/20 "2012-07-29T16:34:24Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > For a more modern case of the horrors of war, how about Spotsylvania Court House in the US Civil War? Casual Googling does not seem to go into the horrible details I have read, but it was really bestial. I will try to get a quote from Foote or Catton later on. From A Stillness at Appomatox > [@](#): > > In effect each side was making a charge and repelling a charge at the same moment with the same troops. The Confederates were fighting with a last ditch fury… It began to rain again and the men in the trenches stood to their knees in bloodstained water and the ground outside the trenches, trampled by massed thousands of men, turned into a stiff gumbo in which bodies of the dead and wounded men were trodden out of sight… Never before on earth had so many muskets been fired so fast on so narrow a front and at such close range… Men fired throughchinks in the logs, or stabbed throughthe chinks with their bayonets or reached over the top to swing clubbed muskets..men were seen to spring on top of the logs and fire down on their enemies as fast as their comrades could pass loaded muskets up to them. Each man would get off a few shots before he was shot, and usually someone else would clambor up to take his place The entire section on Spotsylvania and the Bloody Angle (described above) is harrowing.At points, two armeies divided by only a log wall fought it out. It describes the physical and psychological state of the armies who, for the first time, had engaged in essentially continuous fighting for weeks. Previously, a battle would be fought, one side would run away to regroup and then eventually a next distinct engagement would occur. sometime with weeks or months in between. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-alleged-military-incident-actually-occur/629510.md?page=2)