# Did this college fail to negotiate in good faith or did this applicant deserve what she got? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 18, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031 "2014-03-18T22:10:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/281 "2014-03-21T17:20:38Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And you keep saying that even after people have explained that these kinds of accommodations aren’t unheard of in the profession. Yes it just proves that a woman in her position is faced with people who are looking for the opportunity to punish her for being who she is. They may not be ‘unheard of’ _singly_, but asking for \*all \*of them was a bit much, especially in a smaller institution. That is what most of us are saying. You have to earn some things first, not just make demands for accommodations having done nothing to earn them. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/282 "2014-03-21T17:21:51Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Making a request of such significance calls for a lot more humility and less flippancy. Some grovelling and begging was in order. When you are asking for leave before you have worked there even a single day takes a lot of gall. I simply do not hear a tone of flippancy. I’m looking through my contract negotiation emails (I’m a photographer), and I see 530 instances of the phrase “let me know what you think” (in quotes, for an exact match. Some of these instances are duplicates, though, showing up in ccs of emails.) It is not an unusual phrase to use, in my experience, in negotiation, and it’s not something that jumps out as being “flippant” to me, but, rather, I read it as “hey, I’m amenable to conversation about this. I’m not being demanding.” I know this is not the same thing as negotiating a tenure-track job, but the purpose of the phrase is to soften the tone and _not_ have the previous requests come off as demands. How you read flippancy and entitlement into it is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/283 "2014-03-21T17:22:42Z")
“A bit much” is far removed from “dripping with entitlement.” There’s no indication that she believed she was entitled to any of them. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/284 "2014-03-21T17:24:49Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > They may not be ‘unheard of’ _singly_, but asking for \*all \*of them was a bit much, especially in a smaller institution. That is what most of us are saying. You have to earn some things first, not just make demands for accommodations having done nothing to earn them. Right. That’s where naïveté comes in, not entitlement. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/285 "2014-03-21T17:25:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “A bit much” is far removed from “dripping with entitlement.” There’s no indication that she believed she was entitled to any of them. Are you unfamiliar with the use of understatement for effect, to be polite? ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/286 "2014-03-21T17:30:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yeah, it’s been explained repeatedly that (1) none these requests are way out of line for the broader profession (2) at least one of them had already been granted informally (3) W wasn’t expecting to get any if them and her proposal was not even nearly in the firm of a demand, and (4) it’s likely that she was advised that these were reasonable things to ask for. > > After all that, if you’re still sticking with “drips with entitlement” then it’s because you want to see it that way. I would say naivete more than entitlement. That being said, the things you mention in your first paragraph have been the subject of much debate in this thread. It’s really not anywhere near as simple or as clear as you would have it be. (1) Not sure what you mean by “the broader profession”–this is a set of requests for a particular college which is different from some other kinds of colleges. That’s the piece of this that I have the hardest time getting past: W apparently entirely missed the goals and emphasis of _this particular college_. As others have noted, it sounds like W is more interested in research than in teaching. (2) Has the college confirmed this? If not, how would we know? (3) W wasn’t expecting to get ANY of them? Again, how do we know? And there are plenty of people in this thread who have read this as a demand. (4) I really don’t see how this is germane. Do you blindly follow all the advice you are given? I know I don’t, sometimes to my detriment to be sure, but sometimes not. “W got bad advice” is not a compelling excuse. BTW, I doubt that W has another job in hand; no evidence, just a belief that the response from Nazareth stung W more than it would’ve if there’d been another place to go (leaking the letter sounds to me more likely a consequence of “they screwed me out of a job” than “how rude! good thing Enormous State University has already offered me a position”). Anybody else amused by W’s being “flabbergasted at the number of moralizing comments” in response to the posting of the letter? What was the posting, after all, but an attempt to moralize? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/287 "2014-03-21T17:30:16Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I simply do not hear a tone of flippancy. I’m looking through my contract negotiation emails (I’m a photographer), and I see 530 instances of the phrase “let me know what you think” (in quotes, for an exact match. Some of these instances are duplicates, though, showing up in ccs of emails.) It is not an unusual phrase to use, in my experience, in negotiation, and it’s not something that jumps out as being “flippant” to me, but, rather, I read it as “hey, I’m amenable to conversation about this. I’m not being demanding.” I know this is not the same thing as negotiating a tenure-track job, but the purpose of the phrase is to soften the tone and _not_ have the previous requests come off as demands. How you read flippancy and entitlement into it is beyond me. Different context. This is for a position as a philosophy professor, tenure track, not a photography session for a motorcycle calendar. The tone is altogether wrong. ‘I would like to propose the following for your kind consideration…blah blah blah’ Something like that. It should be very formal, academic, and polite ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/288 "2014-03-21T17:30:41Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Are you unfamiliar with the use of understatement for effect, to be polite? More likely you were previously using hyperbole for dramatic effect. Are you familiar with that? > [@Melchior](#): > > Different context. This is for a position as a philosophy professor, tenure track, not a photography session for a motorcycle calendar. The tone is altogether wrong. > ‘I would like to propose the following for your kind consideration…blah blah blah’ > > Something like that. It should be very formal, academic, and polite I would truly like to know how many academic hires you’ve been a part of for you to so strongly assert your knowledge in this area. Hires in general, even? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/289 "2014-03-21T17:33:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And you keep saying that even after people have explained that these kinds of accommodations aren’t unheard of in the profession. Yes it just proves that a woman in her position is faced with people who are looking for the opportunity to punish her for being who she is. What I keep hearing from people in this thread is that these kinds of accommodations are not uncommon at large research universities, but they’re impractical and unreasonable at small teaching colleges. Hence the indication that she herself, or at least her negotiation tactics, are a bad fit for this job. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/290 "2014-03-21T17:33:20Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I doubt that a man would have made the same sorts of mistakes. But who knows. Just saw this. Come on, this makes no sense at all. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/291 "2014-03-21T17:34:38Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What I keep hearing from people in this thread is that these kinds of accommodations are not uncommon at large research universities, but they’re impractical and unreasonable at small teaching colleges. Hence the indication that she herself, or at least her negotiation tactics, are a bad fit for this job. Also, a subset would be ok at a SLAC, but not necessarily all of them together. That’s where I think she went astray. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/292 "2014-03-21T17:35:21Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I would truly like to know how many academic hires you’ve been a part of for you to so strongly assert your knowledge in this area. Hires in general, even? It’s called ‘common sense’, ‘courtesy’, ‘respect’, ‘knowing your place’, etc. You are asking someone important for significant concessions (and as mentioned above, unreasonable ones for this institution). How do you do that? In an offhand manner, or formally? You are not asking a vendor to deliver your air conditioner on Tuesday instead of Monday. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/293 "2014-03-21T17:36:27Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > Just saw this. Come on, this makes no sense at all. Don’t even take the sexist bait. That really makes me :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/294 "2014-03-21T17:39:13Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > Just saw this. Come on, this makes no sense at all. I think men in academics have a better sense of ‘their place’ in general. Just my impression, though. I have a lot of friends in the academic world. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/295 "2014-03-21T17:42:31Z")
Knowing your place is such an important part of being a scholar and educator. It’s something women and minorities have a hard time understanding. That’s why we gotta give them a shock every once in a whole to keep them in line. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/296 "2014-03-21T17:49:58Z")
I was rereading the original demands and I still think SLAC was right > [@](#): > > 1. An increase of my starting salary to $65,000, which is more in line with what assistant professors in philosophy have been getting in the last few years. > 2. An official semester of maternity leave. > 3. A pre-tenure sabbatical at some point during the bottom half of my tenure clock. > 4. No more than three new class preps per year for the first three years. > 5. A start date of academic year 2015 so I can complete my postdoc. #1. I’ll go with W on this. Everyone negotiates salary unless you are tied to a contracted amount (like public school teachers). Mrs Cad just got offered a job, countered for $10K more to match her current salary and got $8K of it. #2. Who negotiates this? Answer: no one. Maternity (or the rare paternity) leave is spelled out already in the employee policies. X weeks paid or unpaid under FMLA or whatever. At this point W is coming across as clueless having always been in academia and never in the real world. #3. WTF?! Maybe someone whose PhD dissertation is considered a seminal work in their field would get this but first-year assistant professor no one has ever heard of? You’re lucky if you get a bathroom key. #4 Trust me, I fully understand where W is coming from. This year I had 5 new preps (meaning different classes) fall semester and 3 second semester. But she really should have phrased this differently. It comes off as entitled. #5 Has got to be why SLAC rescinded the offer. I’m finishing up my Ed.D so I admit I’m not really sure of the relevance of postdoc work. I have my doctorate so why am I not done? But I do know postdoc is important for research students so if I’m at SLAC and see that she prefers postdoc to teaching - it is not a good fit and no one will be happy. And in all fairness, the college did say > [@](#): > > It was determined that on the whole these provisions indicate an interest in teaching at a research university and not at a college, like ours, that is both teaching and student centered. and not “Fuck off you entitled bitch!” I think it is clear hat the school recognized that upon further information she was not a good match and took the appropriate action. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/297 "2014-03-21T17:55:09Z")
Does anyone else have cites of an employer (academic or otherwise) withdrawing a job offer due a negotiation or something similar? Many people are acting like this is unheard of, and it certainly seems unusual to me, given my personal experiences. But I’d be interested to know if this is a rare practice or not. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/298 "2014-03-21T17:57:56Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I was rereading the original demands and I still think SLAC was right > > And in all fairness, the college did not say “Fuck off you entitled bitch!” I think it is clear hat the school recognized that upon further information she was not a good match and took the appropriate action. You get the impression of a pampered daughter of an academic who has little knowledge of the real world. I doubt that W is the daughter of a longshoreman. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/299 "2014-03-21T18:02:48Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I think men in academics have a better sense of ‘their place’ in general. Just my impression, though. **I have a lot of friends in the academic world.** I don’t know which I find harder to believe, that you have friends in the academic world or that you have friends at all. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/300 "2014-03-21T18:03:04Z")
Yes being from a family of longshoremen is a key qualification that fewer and fewer people meet as longshoremen are replaced by robots. It really does deprive our students of an important part of their experience at Nazareth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031.md?page=16)