# Did this college fail to negotiate in good faith or did this applicant deserve what she got? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 18, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031 "2014-03-18T22:10:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/341 "2014-03-21T20:51:53Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > No, not about going into philosophy. > > The argument that a man would have negotiated this offer more successfully. Y’know, the argument you’ve been making. What I am saying is that that males going into philosophy would be different from females in a way that would make these \*particular \*blunders less likely. The group from which each would be drawn would be different. Males who are drawn to philosophy are different from most male college students. I noticed this in my various classes, that the males (those who were philosophy majors) were different from the males in say, my history or English classes. I also think that the females would be more likely to come from wealthy families than the males. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/342 "2014-03-21T20:56:19Z")
Because penis. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/343 "2014-03-21T20:57:21Z")
Whereas the men had been fathered by or had themselves fathered longshoremen. It’s amazing how you reveal a new prejudice with each post and if you really have any connection to academic philosophy it makes me think that of course prejudice was involved. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/344 "2014-03-21T21:03:23Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Whereas the men had been fathered by or had themselves fathered longshoremen. > > It’s amazing how you reveal a new prejudice with each post. Well, a wealthy family is more likely to be able to support a female student through a long course of study when the field is not medicine or something more remunerative than philosophy. And if the student is a male, I think a wealthy family would be more likely to encourage him to study law or medicine. So, again, what I am saying is that the female philosophy student is more likely to come from a wealthy family and thus be ‘spoiled’. If you actually would stop and think about what I say before rejecting it, it would be helpful ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/345 "2014-03-21T21:05:54Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > What I am saying is that that males going into philosophy would be different from females in a way that would make these \*particular \*blunders less likely. The group from which each would be drawn would be different. Males who are drawn to philosophy are different from most male college students. I noticed this in my various classes, that the males (those who were philosophy majors) were different from the males in say, my history or English classes. I also think that the females would be more likely to come from wealthy families than the males. Wow. You have no clue how you sound. Really no point here. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/346 "2014-03-21T21:09:12Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Wow. > > You have no clue how you sound. Really no point here. Please read my last post. It explains. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/347 "2014-03-21T21:13:35Z")
Everyone: **Okay, it’s time to stop the “woman/men are better than men/woman” debate and get back to the OP.** > [@Melchior](#): > > Exactly. This particular woman was not playing a strong hand. Women should play poker. It’s where you learn such things. > [@Melchior](#): > > I doubt that a man would have made the same sorts of mistakes. But who knows. > [@Melchior](#): > > I agree, but I would be surprised if a man could blunder so badly. …And since you are the one who introduced this hijack, this is a specific note for you: Stop hijacking threads or you will get more warnings. If you want to post in this thread, you talk about what the thread is about. Any other debates you want to get into (such as a gender debate), you either start a new topic about or take it to the Pit to rant. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/348 "2014-03-21T21:18:01Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > Everyone: **Okay, it’s time to stop the “woman/men are better than men/woman” debate and get back to the OP.** > > …And since you are the one who introduced this hijack, this is a specific note for you: Stop hijacking threads or you will get more warnings. If you want to post in this thread, you talk about what the thread is about. Any other debates you want to get into (such as a gender debate), you either start a new topic about or take it to the Pit to rant. All right. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/349 "2014-03-21T21:30:19Z")
The wider point is that philosophy is especially vulnerable to criticisms of sexism. [http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/09/10/philos](http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/09/10/philos) > [@](#): > > “I was the butt of jokes when I received a distinction on my prelims, since it seemed funny to everyone to suggest that I should get a blood test to determine if I was really a woman. In a seminar in philosophical logic, I was asked to give a presentation on a historical figure when none of the other (male) students were, later to learn that this was because the professor assumed I’d be writing a thesis on the history of philosophy,” she writes. So it does not require a hair-trigger to wonder, in this case, what role the applicant’s gender played given the discipline. I am very happy to see that both of my alma matres are in the top 10 departments by % of tenured/TT female faculty. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/350 "2014-03-21T21:47:48Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > The wider point is that philosophy is especially vulnerable to criticisms of sexism. > > [http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/09/10/philos](http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/09/10/philos) > > So it does not require a hair-trigger to wonder, in this case, what role the applicant’s gender played given the discipline. > > I am very happy to see that both of my alma matres are in the top 10 departments by % of tenured/TT female faculty. That’s very interesting. In biology there doesn’t seem to be that kind of bias, which surprises me to find in a humanities discipline. Thanks for the info. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/351 "2014-03-21T21:48:23Z")
I think the reason why gender comes in to this is that it plays on many women’s fears. We know we make, on average, less than men in similar positions (with the exception if young childless women in early career positions, who now enjoy a brief advantage.) We know part of this is because women tend not to negotiate their salaries. Why not? The standard explanation is that we are socialized to not make waves in the workplace. But the scarier explanation, the one that really strikes to our hearts, is not the fear that it will be awkward or uncomfortable to ask for more. It’s the fear that we will be punished for it. It’s not fear that they will say no. It’s fear that we will get a label on us that has a real and lasting effect on our lives. We don’t know that’s what happened here, but it looks enough like it to put the fear of god in us. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/352 "2014-03-21T21:54:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yes, your monthly makes you overly emotional and your uterus makes you crazy. You have a lot to deal with. Why don’t you just go lie down and let the boys take care of determining your salary and compensation? As you know, I am very enthusiastic about the possibility of coming to Nazareth. Granting some of the following provisions would make my decision easier. Unfettered access to a dark red velvet Victorian fainting couch. An unlimited supply of lacy handkerchiefs lightly scented in rose water. Let me know what you think. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/353 "2014-03-21T21:56:21Z")
I think the reason why gender comes in to this is that it plays on many women’s fears. We know we make, on average, less than men in similar positions (with the exception if young childless women in early career positions, who now enjoy a brief advantage.) We know part of this is because women tend not to negotiate their salaries. Why not? The standard explanation is that we are socialized to not make waves in the workplace. But the scarier explanation, the one that really strikes to our hearts, is not the fear that it will be awkward or uncomfortable to ask for more. It’s the fear that we will be punished for it. It’s not fear that they will say no. It’s fear that we will get a label on us that has a real and lasting effect on our lives. We don’t know that’s what happened here, but it looks enough like it to put the fear of god in us. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/354 "2014-03-21T22:10:36Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > That’s very interesting. In biology there doesn’t seem to be that kind of bias, which surprises me to find in a humanities discipline. > > Thanks for the info. Biology is actually one of the few STEM fields with almost no gender bias, biology is out of the norm. Though I’ll grant that I’m also somewhat surprised that philosophy, in particular, has a gender bias against women. ---
**Author:** ![butterfiles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@butterfiles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butterfiles)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/355 "2014-03-21T22:12:58Z")
I have a background in academia (dropped out mid-PhD in English). Something about Nazareth struck me as familiar. I also did my undergraduate study at a small liberal arts catholic college in NY. And I found it in about two min. on Nazareth’s website - they were started by the sisters of St. Joseph. In their mission statement alone, you can see the St. Joseph’s background. I did my graduate work at a large research university - a world of difference. Seriously, another world. Now I’m a happy government employee with no negotiations to think about; I’m entitled to exactly what I get 🙂 I think she was a bad fit. And a pansy. She’ll probably be successful in her field. She’s psychologically disposed to and been trained to feel a certain way about her work. I don’t think it’s a gender thing at all. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/356 "2014-03-21T22:13:57Z")
I knew that about the ratio of grad students and post docs in bio, but the number of women drop off dramatically in TT positions. Somehow they get lost. I was surprised about philosophy too. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/357 "2014-03-21T22:20:16Z")
> [@butterfiles](#): > > Now I’m a happy government employee with no negotiations to think about; I’m entitled to exactly what I get 🙂 Don’t be so sure. I didn’t think to negotiate when I was hired for my current government job, thinking that just isn’t done, only to later find out from a colleague who started around the same time that she’d negotiated her salary big-time. :smack: We started off at the same entry level, and now she’s a manager. So I then took my cues from her and interviewed for a position in her shop. Leveraged myself a big salary increase. It worked out beautifully.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![butterfiles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@butterfiles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butterfiles)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/358 "2014-03-21T22:27:43Z")
WHAT! Damn my ovaries! I didn’t know this was possible. I think I’ll go send an email to my boss asking for some provisions, like donuts and more time to read my emails and think of interesting but pointless questions that show her I can think of an interesting question. I bet I can get my demands met. Starting Monday afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![butterfiles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@butterfiles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butterfiles)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/359 "2014-03-21T22:28:47Z")
What are TT positions? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/360 "2014-03-21T22:32:18Z")
Sorry! Tenure track faculty positions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031.md?page=19)