# Did this college fail to negotiate in good faith or did this applicant deserve what she got? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 18, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031 "2014-03-18T22:10:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/561 "2014-03-27T18:11:06Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > My understanding is that employers make offers to a single candidate at a time, but is there any law in place requiring that? It seems to me that if employers could provide offers to several people at once, that it would be favorable to them. They could play candidates off of each other and discourage negotiation by getting the them to scramble to be the first one with a signed contract, lest they lose the offer. > > If there’s no law requiring single offers at a time, it’s possible that Nazareth actually did send offers to multiple candidates, and retracted W’s offer because someone else accepted. The “fit” issue could have just been a convenient excuse, so they didn’t have to admit to it. That’s not something I’ve ever heard of. Even if it is a buyers’ market, most departments look at tenure track hires as long-term investments. They’re choosing a colleague, not an employee, and they’re looking for someone that they want to work with (and who wants to work with them) for the next decade or two. They don’t want to start out with an antagonistic relationship. I suppose some department somewhere might decide it’s worth trying, but it would get out - people get angry when job offers are withdrawn. I can’t see any reputable school doing it. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/562 "2014-03-27T18:29:40Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > What else could lead her to make such foolish moves? We’re in disagreement there. I think it was a bit sloppy, but I don’t think it was the monumental display of idiocy that you seem to. Perhaps she was trained to be overly formal and concise when negotiating and she took that to heart by dryly listing her requests rather than providing explanations. Even if her email could be objectively considered an incredibly foolish move, there’s still any number of things that could explain it: poor training, misjudgment of how important she was to the college, or just a bad day (everyone has them). Smart people do stupid things sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/563 "2014-03-27T20:33:07Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > We’re in disagreement there. I think it was a bit sloppy, but I don’t think it was the monumental display of idiocy that you seem to. Perhaps she was trained to be overly formal and concise when negotiating and she took that to heart by dryly listing her requests rather than providing explanations. > > Even if her email could be objectively considered an incredibly foolish move, there’s still any number of things that could explain it: poor training, misjudgment of how important she was to the college, or just a bad day (everyone has them). Smart people do stupid things sometimes. All I can tell you is that if \*I \*were a dean or department head and received an e-mail like this from a Ph.D. in _philosophy_, I would go put a bullet through my head. She is talking like a 15 year old babysitter! Of course we all have bad days. ‘Let me know what you think’ is beyond the pale, however. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/564 "2014-03-27T20:36:21Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > All I can tell you is that if I were a dean or department head and received an e-mail like this from a Ph.D. in philosophy, I would go put a bullet through my head. > > Of course we all have bad days. ‘Let me know what you think’ is beyond the pale, however. Wow. I can’t believe how much you’re focusing on “let me know what you think,” which, to me, is the least objectionable part of the conversation. If I were hiring someone for my business, that would not be an issue whatsoever. Suffice to say, it’s clear I would never hire you, and you would never hire me. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/565 "2014-03-27T20:41:21Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Wow. I can’t believe how much you’re focusing on “let me know what you think,” which, to me, is the least objectionable part of the conversation. If I were hiring someone for my business, that would not be an issue whatsoever. Suffice to say, it’s clear I would never hire you, and you would never hire me. It’s the worst part, and suggest a complete inability to function in a setting where certain formalities are observed. It’s all about _form_, specifically, _good form_. See senses 13 and 14: [http://triggs.djvu.org/century-dictionary.com/djvu2jpgframes.php?volno=03&page=559&query=form](http://triggs.djvu.org/century-dictionary.com/djvu2jpgframes.php?volno=03&page=559&query=form) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/566 "2014-03-27T20:46:00Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It’s the worst part, and suggest a complete inability to function in a setting where certain formalities are observed. It’s all about _form_, specifically, _good form_. > > See senses 13 and 14: > > [http://triggs.djvu.org/century-dictionary.com/djvu2jpgframes.php?volno=03&page=559&query=form](http://triggs.djvu.org/century-dictionary.com/djvu2jpgframes.php?volno=03&page=559&query=form) Goddamit. Why do I bother to engage in this? We obviously have different attitudes about formality in this. I don’t think her tone was the faux pas in the negotiations. I think she could have played her cards better, but it’s _not_ because of what you perceive as a “flippant” tone of voice which, frankly, I think is nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/567 "2014-03-27T20:51:57Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Goddamit. Why do I bother to engage in this? > > We obviously have different attitudes about formality in this. I don’t think her tone was the faux pas in the negotiations. I think she could have played her cards better, but it’s _not_ because of what you perceive as a “flippant” tone of voice which, frankly, I think is nuts. Do you know about the former president of Ohio State University, E. Gordon Gee? Do you know why he was forced out? He didn’t act appropriately in a university setting! I was very, very glad to see this jerk go. He was hired once, then left, then asked to come back, but eventually his stupidity became just to much for the trustees to take. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.\_Gordon\_Gee](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Gordon_Gee) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/568 "2014-03-27T20:59:35Z")
I’m not sure how the E. Gordon Gee story relates to the case at hand, but, whatever. Note that my position is not to condemn the university for its decision and, in the end, I actually support it (given all that happened since and what we know now). But it’s not for the reasons you state. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/569 "2014-03-27T21:00:49Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m not sure how the E. Gordon Gee story relates to the case at hand, but, whatever. You don’t see the connection? He didn’t know how to conduct himself in a university! He was a walking disaster! ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/570 "2014-03-27T21:01:49Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m not sure how the E. Gordon Gee story relates to the case at hand, but, whatever. Note that my position is not to condemn the university for its decision and, in the end, I actually support it (given all that happened since and what we know now). But it’s not for the reasons you state. What are your reasons? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/571 "2014-03-27T21:02:34Z")
There’s kind of a different level of expectation for a university president than for a newly minted philosophy PhD. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/572 "2014-03-27T21:03:07Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > You don’t see the connection? He didn’t know how to conduct himself in a university! He was a walking disaster! Nobody disagrees with you that there exists special etiquette, form, and demeanor required in professional, academic, or university settings. What people are disagreeing with you about is exactly **what** constitutes good or bad form. Not that it exists at all. > [@Enginerd](#): > > There’s kind of a different level of expectation for a university president than for a newly minted philosophy PhD. This too. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/573 "2014-03-27T21:03:43Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Nobody disagrees with you that there exists special etiquette, form, and demeanor required in professional, academic, or university settings. What people are disagreeing with you about is exactly **what** constitutes good or bad form. Not that it exists at all. All right then. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/574 "2014-03-27T21:05:31Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > There’s kind of a different level of expectation for a university president than for a newly minted philosophy PhD. Could you please elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/575 "2014-03-27T21:07:31Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > What are your reasons? As the candidate, this is something I would have wanted to talk about, in a _less_ formal manner. The issue of formality does not enter into it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/576 "2014-03-27T21:08:36Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > You don’t see the connection? He didn’t know how to conduct himself in a university! He was a walking disaster! This is a job candidate, not someone speaking in a public manner on behalf of the university. So, yeah, I don’t see the connection at all. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/577 "2014-03-27T21:09:38Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In that sense, I would like such employers to be embarrassed publicly by name if what happened to W was that she insufficiently groveled and was deficient in the tugging-the-forelock department. I don’t think she was turned down because she didn’t grovel enough. She asked for more than the university thought she was worth, so they didn’t hire her. > [@](#): > > This is just one more reason why I think that _everyone_ should be represented by a union, so that employees are never in such a weak bargaining position. An union isn’t going to improve her position. A position as a philosophy professor is a seller’s market. They’re not willing to hire her at the price she wanted. Jacking the price up isn’t going to help. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/578 "2014-03-27T21:12:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t think she was turned down because she didn’t grovel enough. She asked for more than the university thought she was worth, so they didn’t hire her.An union isn’t going to improve her position. A position as a philosophy professor is a seller’s market. They’re not willing to hire her at the price she wanted. Jacking the price up isn’t going to help. > > Regards, > Shodan Grovelling don’t zackly enter into it, guvnah! ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/579 "2014-03-27T21:16:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t think she was turned down because she didn’t grovel enough. She asked for more than the university thought she was worth, so they didn’t hire her And, honestly, I can’t fault the university, in the end, for that. Frankly, I think she will be better off wherever she ends up. And it sounds like the university might be better off, as well. Win win. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/580 "2014-03-27T21:23:06Z")
I don’t really fault her either. She thought she could get a better deal, and it turns out she couldn’t. Maybe she will find another position that pays what she wants. I think that is pretty unlikely, given the limited demand for professors of philosophy, but maybe she will. If not, live and learn, or see if the local McDonald’s is hiring. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031.md?page=30)