# Did this college fail to negotiate in good faith or did this applicant deserve what she got? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 18, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031 "2014-03-18T22:10:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/81 "2014-03-19T14:33:56Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Tenure track positions in the liberal arts are vanishing faster than whooping cranes in the 1950s. It’s absolutely a buyer’s market, and doing anything to louse up a job as ‘W’ did is rather ill-advised. The request for maternity leave isn’t something I can speak to, but from experience, most professors in their first couple of years are doing three new preps per SEMESTER, and she was out of line asking for a reduction. > > My suspicion is that W had another offer, perhaps at a better location or even out of academia, and was seeing what she could get from Nazareth. Likewise, Nazareth probably had another candidate who was comparable to W, so exercising their Plan B was a viable option. It’s not unusual for candidates to hear from institutions after the first choice has not panned out (or at least that wasn’t the case 15 years ago when I was closer to the game), so the entire state of affairs doesn’t surprise me that much. > > It’s more common for applicants to back out because they’ve gotten some marvelous deal elsewhere, and I’ve never heard of an institution rescinding an offer in this manner, but I’m not surprised given the market. If she is planning children, that is probably going to interfere with an academic career to a certain extent. She needs to establish herself first. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/82 "2014-03-19T14:48:57Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > If she is planning children, that is probably going to interfere with an academic career to a certain extent. She needs to establish herself first. That’s not true. I’m curious if you have a background as an academic faculty? Depending on the type of research she does, planning kids early on and taking a maternity leave (which is not unreasonable early on) or timing it over the summer can give you a lot of productive time. Bench science is harder to do this way, but can still be done. In fact, lots of departments let you float some of your teaching responsibilities to summer, to complete your course load requirement, to accommodate lighter semesters. There is no good time to have kids that won’t disrupt work. Earlier is often easier, so you can push in the last few years prior to tenure when the kids are a little older. Also, Jr faculty are often given lighter committee work, which helps balance taht as well. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/83 "2014-03-19T15:01:20Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > That’s not true. > > I’m curious if you have a background as an academic faculty? Depending on the type of research she does, planning kids early on and taking a maternity leave (which is not unreasonable early on) or timing it over the summer can give you a lot of productive time. Bench science is harder to do this way, but can still be done. In fact, lots of departments let you float some of your teaching responsibilities to summer, to complete your course load requirement, to accommodate lighter semesters. > > There is no good time to have kids that won’t disrupt work. Earlier is often easier, so you can push in the last few years prior to tenure when the kids are a little older. Also, Jr faculty are often given lighter committee work, which helps balance taht as well. It sounds to me as though they need someone to start right away and be productive in the classroom, and put in a lot of hours. She wants to do other things that would interfere with that. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/84 "2014-03-19T15:08:13Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It sounds to me as though they need someone to start right away and be productive in the classroom, and put in a lot of hours. She wants to do other things that would interfere with that. End of story. True. I still think the maternity issue would be the easiest thing to work through given our current societal norms, but she’s asking to start a year later. The late start is probably the most disturbing thing about her email. The responsible thing to do would have been to discuss finishing her postdoc in the interview process; that’s not something that can be smoothed over. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/85 "2014-03-19T15:13:13Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It sounds to me as though they need someone to start right away and be productive in the classroom, and put in a lot of hours. She wants to do other things that would interfere with that. End of story. End of story? I have argued the University was probably correct in rescinding the offer, so I don’t know what you’re arguing against. I am specifically responding to your comment about her having to establish herself first, before having kids. All faculty positions are posted and filled because there is an immediate need and most of the time those positions can find ways to accommodate people who want to have children. That’s not the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/86 "2014-03-19T15:14:55Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > True. I still think the maternity issue would be the easiest thing to work through given our current societal norms, but she’s asking to start a year later. The late start is probably the most disturbing thing about her email. The responsible thing to do would have been to discuss finishing her postdoc in the interview process; that’s not something that can be smoothed over. yeah, she’s saying: “I want more money, and I really can’t start right away, and oh…yeah I want to take time off to have kids too.” ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/87 "2014-03-19T15:17:30Z")
I do entirely understand what people are saying about it sounding like she wasn’t a good fit for a teaching-oriented position. And that her tone is a little… reaching. But would we all really be tearing into her if she weren’t a she? I mean, isn’t that the advice women ALWAYS get - that women don’t negotiate salary, that women get paid less because they accept less, that women are afraid to rock the boat, etc? So, you know, good job leaning in there! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/88 "2014-03-19T15:22:36Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > But would we all really be tearing into her if she weren’t a she? Yes. The only thing that’s remotely gendered here is the maternity leave, and the consensus is that this is the least important issue, and the easiest to work with. A lot of what you say might be more on point for non-academic negotiations, but academia is deeply weird and has its own norms. ---
**Author:** ![F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.Pu-du-he-pa-as)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/89 "2014-03-19T15:23:00Z")
I’d like to offer my perspective as an early-career (currently ABD, with a postdoc lined up for next year) female academic. It has been absolutely drilled into us that there is a pay/benefits gap between men and women in academics, and that this is in large part due to the fact that women don’t negotiate. So, it is our DUTY to the future of women in academics to negotiate our job offers, both for salary and for benefits, since that is the point at which we have the most leverage. So, this is exactly the sort of set of requests that someone in my position would expect to ask from an R1 university. Of course, for a small, teaching-oriented college, some of the requests were tone-deaf. I’m afraid that the whole incident is going to get spun as a cautionary tale for what happens to women when they try to negotiate for better pay and working conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/90 "2014-03-19T15:26:59Z")
Okay, maybe I don’t understand the gender issues. I’m a male academic (PhD, non-tenure track) and I have never, ever been told to negotiate anything. I’ve always been told “don’t rock the boat, be grateful for any job you’re given.” When I’ve had postdocs and visiting professorships, I was given a salary with a take-it-or-leave it finality. Maybe I’m just a crap negotiator, but I was under the impression that this was standard. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/91 "2014-03-19T15:27:36Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I do entirely understand what people are saying about it sounding like she wasn’t a good fit for a teaching-oriented position. And that her tone is a little… reaching. > > But would we all really be tearing into her if she weren’t a she? I mean, isn’t that the advice women ALWAYS get - that women don’t negotiate salary, that women get paid less because they accept less, that women are afraid to rock the boat, etc? So, you know, good job leaning in there! Yeah, I would. The maternity thing I doubt was much of an issue - I think (as a fertility challenged woman) to believe that she’ll be able to time a child to interrupt ONE semester and take ONE full semester off is sort of naive…but hey. That’s a primarily female issue (although some men might want paternity leave), but I doubt the request was what killed the process. And I don’t think the salary was a big deal - unless that is completely pie in the sky. Men negotiate salary more aggressively and successfully then women, but I’m not making judgements on her for asking. I think it was the subsequent points - which all indicate a desire to have a lot of time for her own research and publishing efforts - by taking that time away from teaching - that make it a bad fit. Finally, whether male or female, going public with it was very unprofessional - tacky even. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/92 "2014-03-19T15:29:12Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I do entirely understand what people are saying about it sounding like she wasn’t a good fit for a teaching-oriented position. And that her tone is a little… reaching. > > But would we all really be tearing into her if she weren’t a she? I mean, isn’t that the advice women ALWAYS get - that women don’t negotiate salary, that women get paid less because they accept less, that women are afraid to rock the boat, etc? So, you know, good job leaning in there! I don’t think her sex has anything to do with it. You could substitute any other reason for time off.’ Regardless, negotiation as to be done from a strong position. She is in a buyer’s market. ‘Asking for X’ is not the same thing as ‘negotiating for X’. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/93 "2014-03-19T15:42:00Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Okay, maybe I don’t understand the gender issues. I’m a male academic (PhD, non-tenure track) and I have never, ever been told to negotiate anything. I’ve always been told “don’t rock the boat, be grateful for any job you’re given.” When I’ve had postdocs and visiting professorships, I was given a salary with a take-it-or-leave it finality. Maybe I’m just a crap negotiator, but I was under the impression that this was standard. This is my experience, as a female, science TT faculty, who has taught as an adjunct, and held positions at a community college, at research university and at a SLAC. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/94 "2014-03-19T16:02:58Z")
The main thing is to get the job. If she had asked for \*one \*of these things alone it would not have been a big deal, but she is plainly too demanding for someone in her shoes. Once you have the job and you have established yourself as valuable, then you can ask for more. Ask for a two-year contract or something like that, with a salary review at the end of that period. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/95 "2014-03-19T16:11:44Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Possible, but then why go public? I’d say she didn’t realize she was asking for the moon, but the college thought she was and thus thought she wasn’t interested. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/96 "2014-03-19T16:24:09Z")
\*Dear John, Thank you for your proposal of marriage. As you know, I am very enthusiastic about the possibility of becoming your wife. Granting some of the following provisions would make my decision easier. At least one night a week to go out with my girlfriends. A wedding date of 2016. A four-month overseas business assignment sometime in the first three years of the marriage to advance my career. One weekend alone each month to spend however I want. I know that some of these might be easier to grant than others. Let me know what you think.\* ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/97 "2014-03-19T17:04:27Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I do entirely understand what people are saying about it sounding like she wasn’t a good fit for a teaching-oriented position. And that her tone is a little… reaching. > > But would we all really be tearing into her if she weren’t a she? I mean, isn’t that the advice women ALWAYS get - that women don’t negotiate salary, that women get paid less because they accept less, that women are afraid to rock the boat, etc? So, you know, good job leaning in there! I did have thoughts along those lines, but, again, that doesn’t mean it’s the college’s responsibility to take someone they now see is a poor fit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/98 "2014-03-19T17:06:27Z")
They certainly have no legal obligation to hold open a gratuitous offer of employment - and this will probably save them money since other applicants will be less inclined to haggle. I guess they might turn off one or two candidates who think they’re being assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/99 "2014-03-19T17:25:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They certainly have no legal obligation to hold open a gratuitous offer of employment - and this will probably save them money since other applicants will be less inclined to haggle. I guess they might turn off one or two candidates who think they’re being assholes. Given the apparent glut of PhDs in liberals arts and the shortage of tenured teaching positions, I doubt the college is really going to worry about that. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/100 "2014-03-19T17:31:29Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Given the apparent glut of PhDs in liberals arts and the shortage of tenured teaching positions, I doubt the college is really going to worry about that. Yes, again the sense of entitlement is astonishing. She is apparently unfamiliar with the notion of competition. She may be a good teacher, but she has to be realistic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031.md?page=6)