# Did this college fail to negotiate in good faith or did this applicant deserve what she got? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 18, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031 "2014-03-18T22:10:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/101 "2014-03-19T17:51:10Z")
I agree with those who said that the tone of her letter indicated to the committee that she was going to be a long-term headache. Why take the risk when they likely have a huge pool of other qualified candidates? If she had come to them asking if there was room for negotiation on salary, and inquiring about their maternity policy - “is there any flexibility there?” - she would have demonstrated a willingness to partner with the college instead of making demands on it. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/102 "2014-03-19T17:55:59Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Okay, maybe I don’t understand the gender issues. I’m a male academic (PhD, non-tenure track) and I have never, ever been told to negotiate anything. I’ve always been told “don’t rock the boat, be grateful for any job you’re given.” When I’ve had postdocs and visiting professorships, I was given a salary with a take-it-or-leave it finality. Maybe I’m just a crap negotiator, but I was under the impression that this was standard. I strongly think there should be a norm of fixed pay scales, with no negotiation. (I also think pay scales should be public knowledge, as they are for public universities- you can look up any employee of a public university in Michigan, for example, and find out what they make). Having people ‘negotiate’ their salaries results in unjustly favouring people who are more assertive/aggressive over those who aren’t. (If you care about that sort of thing, that results in lower salaries for women, since women are less self-assertive than men, on the whole. I don’t really care about the gender pay gap, per se, but I do care that people get less because of psychological/personality traits that have nothing to do with the job). ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/103 "2014-03-19T17:58:09Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Yes, again the sense of entitlement is astonishing. She is apparently unfamiliar with the notion of competition. She may be a good teacher, but she has to be realistic. Oh, I don’t believe its a sense of entitlement - like Manda JO and ITD, I think on her part its cluelessness. And, I admit, I’m wondering about the intelligence of people who invest the time and money in getting Liberal Arts PhDs without reviewing the job market and are SHOCKED to discover that there are a shortage of jobs and what jobs their are pay crap. But I’m don’t think its entitlement - I think its more often cluelessness. And, from what I know of Liberal Arts grad schools - she probably ISN’T a good teacher - grad school isn’t about making good TEACHERS. And if teacher were her passion, she probably wouldn’t be countering with all the ways she doesn’t want to spend her time teaching. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/104 "2014-03-19T17:59:33Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Yes, again the sense of entitlement is astonishing. She is apparently unfamiliar with the notion of competition. She may be a good teacher, but she has to be realistic. Which of her requests do you believe is unrealistic? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/105 "2014-03-19T18:09:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Which of her requests do you believe is unrealistic? All of them taken together. As mentioned above, she appears clueless. ---
**Author:** ![F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.Pu-du-he-pa-as)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/106 "2014-03-19T19:08:52Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And if teacher were her passion, she probably wouldn’t be countering with all the ways she doesn’t want to spend her time teaching. Unless the promotion/tenure decisions at this particular college work differently from practically everywhere else, she will be judged primarily on the quality/quantity of the research she puts out, and relatively little on teaching. Even if your main interest is teaching, you still have to be able to sink huge amounts of time into research to keep your job. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/107 "2014-03-19T19:12:09Z")
> [@F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](#): > > Unless the promotion/tenure decisions at this particular college work differently from practically everywhere else, she will be judged primarily on the quality/quantity of the research she puts out, and relatively little on teaching. Even if your main interest is teaching, you still have to be able to sink huge amounts of time into research to keep your job. Which is why grad school doesn’t teach you to teach… ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/108 "2014-03-19T19:13:31Z")
> [@F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](#): > > Unless the promotion/tenure decisions at this particular college work differently from practically everywhere else, she will be judged primarily on the quality/quantity of the research she puts out, and relatively little on teaching. Even if your main interest is teaching, you still have to be able to sink huge amounts of time into research to keep your job. That’s one of the problems- even self proclaimed teaching-centered institutions have high research demands for tenure. It may not be as much as at an R1 institution, but it often seems out of proportion to the time and resources allotted to get research done. Unfortunately, that’s just the reality at those places and you can’t make it into something it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/109 "2014-03-19T19:29:42Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Which is why grad school doesn’t teach you to teach… But what ‘research’ is there in philosophy? Do you mean publish papers full of ‘new’ readings? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/110 "2014-03-19T19:36:19Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > But what ‘research’ is there in philosophy? Do you mean publish papers full of ‘new’ readings? Why would you think philosophy is dead? It’s as vibrant and changing as any academic discipline, from psychology to sociology etc. Don’t put research and new in scare quotes like it’s some made up thing. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/111 "2014-03-19T19:38:26Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > But what ‘research’ is there in philosophy? Do you mean publish papers full of ‘new’ readings? They are researching philosophy, not the history of philosophy or the study of philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/112 "2014-03-19T19:44:37Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > That’s one of the problems- even self proclaimed teaching-centered institutions have high research demands for tenure. It may not be as much as at an R1 institution, but it often seems out of proportion to the time and resources allotted to get research done. I don’t know this school at all, but several several small, undergrad-only schools that I know really do have minimal research expectations. And that’s for scientists. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/113 "2014-03-19T19:47:51Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Why would you think philosophy is dead? It’s as vibrant and changing as any academic discipline, from psychology to sociology etc. Don’t put research and new in scare quotes like it’s some made up thing. I know, I work in philosophy, but I don’t think it’s called ‘research’. It’s basic scholarship, not ‘research’. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/114 "2014-03-19T19:52:59Z")
Last week you were a translator. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/115 "2014-03-19T19:53:29Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I know, I work in philosophy, but I don’t think it’s called ‘research’. > > It’s basic scholarship, not ‘research’. That’s what research, aka scholarship, is. You may want to ask yourself what the Ph in PhD (the research degree) stands for. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/116 "2014-03-19T19:57:19Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > They are researching philosophy, not the history of philosophy or the study of philosophy. [Or are they?](http://memegenerator.net/instance/47418454) ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/117 "2014-03-19T20:28:40Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > That’s what research, aka scholarship, is. > > You may want to ask yourself what the Ph in PhD (the research degree) stands for. Doctor of Philosophy. Everything used to be philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/118 "2014-03-19T20:33:05Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Doctor of Philosophy. Everything used to be philosophy. That’s right. Philosophy is the original research and scholarship field. It isn’t dead. Research and scholarship in that field are ongoing. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/119 "2014-03-19T20:33:52Z")
I’m with the group that believes she simply was clueless about the type of organization at which she was applying, and her negotiating position. It would be like if I got a job offer to be the president of a small town mom and pop hardware store and asked for use of the company jet. The request for a one year delay in her start date was especially egregious. They are hiring now because they need someone now. Instead, she lists several requests for deferred and zero work and asks for higher pay. I would have yanked her offer as well. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/120 "2014-03-19T20:35:29Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > That’s right. Philosophy is the original research and scholarship field. It isn’t dead. Research and scholarship in that field are ongoing. But study of philosophical writings isn’t usually called ‘research’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031.md?page=7)