# Did this college fail to negotiate in good faith or did this applicant deserve what she got? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 18, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031 "2014-03-18T22:10:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/141 "2014-03-19T22:47:04Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > These are not _prima facie_ insane requests. And even if they were objectively impossible to get, the fact that they are being used as a basis to make judgments about her character is kind of scary. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/142 "2014-03-19T23:02:18Z")
If I was looking to hire someone, and I received a letter like that, I would say to myself, “Uh oh. This one would be a problem.” And quickly move onto the next one. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/143 "2014-03-19T23:35:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And even if they were objectively impossible to get, the fact that they are being used as a basis to make judgments about her character is kind of scary. Yeah, especially from people without a sense of the industry and the recruitment process. There may be hundreds of qualified applicants, but it doesn’t mean that a search committee could agree on who the #2 is. They could hire no one and try again the following year. When I was hiring in the private sector, nobody would make demands like that. Of course, I would spent three minutes reading a resume and maybe an hour interviewing someone, tops. It was not the culmination of a 6 month process and a 1-2 _day_ tribunal. Over the course of recruitment you get to know your prospective employers and colleagues a lot better, your own advisors intervene, etc. It’s a completely different situation. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/144 "2014-03-19T23:42:35Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > If the school wants you, they can hire an adjunct for a year to cover the delay. If the school wants _you_ specifically, as opposed to simply wanting _someone_, or if all the qualified someones have similar start date issues, they have an incentive to go through the trouble and expense of looking for an adjunct. But if they just want someone, and there’s oodles of qualified someones available in their desired time frame–well, it’s a hell of a lot faster and easier to just go to the next person on the list, ya know? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/145 "2014-03-20T00:51:56Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > If the school wants _you_ specifically, as opposed to simply wanting _someone_, or if all the qualified someones have similar start date issues, they have an incentive to go through the trouble and expense of looking for an adjunct. But if they just want someone, and there’s oodles of qualified someones available in their desired time frame–well, it’s a hell of a lot faster and easier to just go to the next person on the list, ya know? You don’t say. Next thing, you’re going to tell me to buy low and sell high. I am going out on a limb here and suppose that if the candidate knew that the offer would be rescinded, she might not have pushed her luck. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Stilettos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/fbc32d/32.png) [@Red\_Stilettos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Stilettos)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/146 "2014-03-20T01:00:12Z")
I know we don’t have all of the details of the maternity leave request, but I have a general question. It seems that some in this thread are perfectly fine with a woman negotiating the terms of a future maternity leave (as in, she isn’t pregnant yet) during job negotiations. This seems like an extraordinarily bad idea to me. Is this something that women are doing now, either in or out of academia? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/147 "2014-03-20T01:03:24Z")
> [@Red\_Stilettos](#): > > I know we don’t have all of the details of the maternity leave request, but I have a general question. It seems that some in this thread are perfectly fine with a woman negotiating the terms of a future maternity leave (as in, she isn’t pregnant yet) during job negotiations. This seems like an extraordinarily bad idea to me. Is this something that women are doing now, either in or out of academia? It should not even be brought up. Maternity leave is a standard thing. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/148 "2014-03-20T01:40:25Z")
Let’s take this out of academia. My small department in a big company is hiring an entry-level analyst. A typical candidate would be fresh off his/her MBA or equivalent and have experience with certain types of projections and calculations and ideally, the software that we use. Naturally we’re gotten a ton of resumes. Most aren’t right for the job, but there have been several strong candidates. After a few interviews, they have one candidate they like, one they’re considering, a bunch of good resumes in the folder, and more coming in every day. While it’s not as much of a “buyers market” as it would be for a tenure track professor job, it’s an attractive position and we have lots of choices. So I’m thinking what would happen if we made the current top candidate an offer and he replied with this: > [@](#): > > As you know, I am very enthusiastic about the possibility of coming to BigCorp. Granting some of the following provisions would make my decision easier. > > 1. An increase of my starting salary to $[much much higher], which is more in line with what entry level analysts have been getting in the last few years. > 2. 4 weeks of vacation per year instead of two > 3. Telecommuting 1-2 days per week > 4. No more than 40 hours per week of work > 5. A start date of 3 months from now > > I know that some of these might be easier to grant than others. Let me know what you think. He’d be laughed out of town. And before you say “what’s wrong with #3?” - Nothing is inherently wrong with it, except that it’s just not done where I work, and would not be a good fit for the position even if it were. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/149 "2014-03-20T01:45:32Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > You don’t say. Next thing, you’re going to tell me to buy low and sell high. > > I am going out on a limb here and suppose that if the candidate knew that the offer would be rescinded, she might not have pushed her luck. Hey, I’m not the one saying that it’s entirely reasonable _in the ordinary course of things_ to think a school will be willing to do a whole separate search and hire an adjunct to suit your convenience. Granted, I’m not in academia, but it seems to me that in the ordinary course, there are enough roughly-equal applicants that there’s really no incentive to go to any extra hassle to accommodate the one who’s marginally better than the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/150 "2014-03-20T02:02:21Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And even if they were objectively impossible to get, the fact that they are being used as a basis to make judgments about her character is kind of scary. Character - no. Fit and her ability to assess a situation - yes. On the other hand, going public I will slam her character on. That is a dick move. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/151 "2014-03-20T02:04:19Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Character - no. > > Fit and her ability to assess a situation - yes. > > On the other hand, going public I will slam her character on. That is a dick move. I think some posters in this thread have declared her a hyper entitled princess complete with tiara and servants based on her email. I think that goes way too far based on the little we know. Going public, on the other hand, not cool at all. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/152 "2014-03-20T02:19:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The course load, she’s basically saying that she wants to do only half of the work she’s being hired to do. Absolutely unacceptable. I think you may have misread that one. She said, “No more than three **new** class preps per year for the first three years,” which might not be possible in the first year, when _all_ of her preps would be new, but having all but three of her preps being repeats or multiple sections in each of years 2 and 3 shouldn’t be a deal-breaker. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/153 "2014-03-20T02:19:19Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Character - no. > > Fit and her ability to assess a situation - yes. > > On the other hand, going public I will slam her character on. That is a dick move. The sense of entitlement just drips from her message. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/154 "2014-03-20T02:25:23Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I think you may have misread that one. She said, “No more than three **new** class preps per year for the first three years,” which might not be possible in the first year, when _all_ of her preps would be new, but having all but three of her preps being repeats or multiple sections in each of years 2 and 3 shouldn’t be a deal-breaker. Not if it’s a tiny department with less than a dozen majors graduating each year, and only 2-3 professors in the department. Lots of courses probably only come up once every 3-5 years, and they pretty much need to be offered as planned–people won’t be able to graduate if PHIL 4XX or PHIL 3XX isn’t offered this next year, because they have to have it and they missed it last time around. And there won’t be many sections of any one thing taught because there just aren’t that many kids. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/155 "2014-03-20T02:27:20Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I think you may have misread that one. She said, “No more than three **new** class preps per year for the first three years,” which might not be possible in the first year, when _all_ of her preps would be new, but having all but three of her preps being repeats or multiple sections in each of years 2 and 3 shouldn’t be a deal-breaker. Most departments are very sensitive to the number of new preps a semester each faculty has. However, sometimes scheduling just works out that way. The assumption that she should have special protection from it, and a guarantee, is the unreasonable part. Ultimately, scheduling classes is generally the responsibility of the Chair, and sometimes giving faculty inconvient time slots, or new classes etc is just unavoidable. To have my hands tied if someone goes on medical/maternity leave etc and I have switching teaching loads around would be hugely problematic to me. ---
**Author:** ![UTejas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UTejas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UTejas)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/156 "2014-03-20T02:42:40Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > I work at a small, cash-strapped liberal arts college probably fairly similar to Nazareth in several particulars, and I’ve recently served on a search committee in philosophy. I’d say there’s plenty of blame to go around, but I’d put it about 75% on the college and 25% on the candidate. > > Her requests are not reasonable for this type of institution (other than the maternity leave, and _maybe_ a higher starting salary, though she shouldn’t expect to go _that_ high). However, 1) she seems to have made them in the spirit of “hey, it can’t hurt to ask, and maybe I’ll actually get a few of the things I ask for” rather than “I AM ENTITLED TO HAVE ALL OF MY DEMANDS MET”; and 2) if she went straight from grad school at an elite research university to a postdoc at an elite research university, there’s a very good chance she doesn’t _know_ what’s reasonable to expect at a SLAC, and her advisor and mentors may have been of no help whatsoever. (Much of the advice I got from faculty when I was on the job market was well-meant but seriously clueless about the realities of working outside of the large-research-university bubble, and that was at UNC-Chapel Hill; I’d hate to imagine what kinds of things faculty at Harvard tell their grad students. It’s also quite possible that as a female candidate, she’d been given the “women end up with lower salaries throughout their careers because they don’t negotiate at the point when they’re hired” speech, and had taken it too much to heart.) Most of what she is asking for, including the pre-tenure junior leave, _would_ be standard or at least not outrageously unusual at a research institution. What she failed to recognize is that her job at an institution like Nazareth would be teaching, and that there are probably only two or three philosophy professors at most – they don’t have any incentive to offer her research leave or a chance to finish her postdoc, they _need_ her to cover a wide variety of classes without complaining, and almost certainly need those classes covered immediately. > > Also, it’s just plain bad form for an institution to rescind an offer once it’s made, just as it is bad form for the candidate to back out after accepting. The college’s next move should have been “sorry, our original salary offer stands, and we can’t offer junior leave or reduced preps, take it or leave it,” rather than “You can’t dump us, WE’RE DUMPING YOU.” I think this is probably the most spot on piece of analysis in this whole thread. I am a current postdoc (in the sciences, so not philosophy) who has started doing a bunch of faculty applications. It really can’t be emphasized enough how difficult it is to get good advice on non-R1 jobs. I did my PhD from a reasonably well-known person (in our field) at an elite public university and followed it with a postdoc appointment with a much better known person but at a non-elite institution. When you’ve spent your whole career at these kind of big R1s and all of your advisors have been the kind of person who succeeds at an R1, finding advice on doing something else is very hard to do. Certainly during my applications, I was advised that everything is negotiable, from starting salary, to teaching load, startup funds, etc. I think it’s very easy to expect that this applicant received similar advice. She probably would have been fine negotiating on salary and perhaps something like a slightly lighter teaching load pre-tenure. Her mistake was giving so many options that it made her sound like a person who’d never succeed or be happy in a primarily teaching, not research, institution. Likely her problem in presenting this request is that she’s never been at that type of place and neither has anyone who is advising her. When in grad school or postdoc, finding someone who isn’t from the standard R1 faculty path can be invaluable. I think it’s a simple matter of being experienced in how one world works and not being fully prepared or well-advised on how to migrate into a related but still wholly different world. Much of the advice I received at the end of my PhD was completely useless when I expressed interest in something other than doing a high profile postdoc. Once I got talked into the high-profile postdoc, there hasn’t been a whole lot of useful advice now that I am certain that I don’t want to spend a decade chasing after a high-profile faculty position that might never come. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/157 "2014-03-20T02:44:40Z")
I think that one thing needs to be re-iterated for those who are looking at this as a simple “misunderstanding” of the college requirements by the applicant. If by the time you are applying for tenured professorships in Philosophy you do not understand with absolute crystal clarity that these position opportunities are insanely rare in modern academia, then I’d have to question your intelligence or your judgment. These are super rare, golden tickets for PhDs in Philosophy, you take the job if it’s offered to you. Her response was beyond ignorant of these realities. How you get to be in the slot to be a entry level Professor and not have a clue about the context of the job market in your profession is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/158 "2014-03-20T03:00:46Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I think that one thing needs to be re-iterated for those who are looking at this as a simple “misunderstanding” of the college requirements by the applicant. If by the time you are applying for tenured professorships in Philosophy you do not understand with absolute crystal clarity that these position opportunities are insanely rare in modern academia, then I’d have to question your intelligence or your judgment. > > These are super rare, golden tickets for PhDs in Philosophy, you take the job if it’s offered to you. Her response was beyond ignorant of these realities. How you get to be in the slot to be a entry level Professor and not have a clue about the context of the job market in your profession is beyond me. It’s as though those people who found hundreds of gold coins on their property just left them there in search of some \*real \*wealth. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/159 "2014-03-20T03:20:30Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Not if it’s a tiny department with less than a dozen majors graduating each year, and only 2-3 professors in the department. Lots of courses probably only come up once every 3-5 years, and they pretty much need to be offered as planned–people won’t be able to graduate if PHIL 4XX or PHIL 3XX isn’t offered this next year, because they have to have it and they missed it last time around. And there won’t be many sections of any one thing taught because there just aren’t that many kids. According to one of the responses in the link, Nazareth’s Philosophy department only has four professors and they’re all teaching four classes a semester. A new hire looking to take her first couple of semesters off and limiting herself to only three classes after that isn’t going to look like a “must have”. ---
**Author:** ![F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.Pu-du-he-pa-as)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031/160 "2014-03-20T03:45:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And the late start date makes no sense at all. The whole point of a postdoc is that it’s a flexible position that can be used to fill the gap between when people graduate and when they get hired to a permanent position. If you take a 2-year postdoc position, and get a permanent offer after 1 year, then you shake your advisor’s hand, say “thank you for the year of work”, and move on. This is expected by everyone, and carries no hard feelings for anyone. Asking for a year to finish your postdoc says that you find your postdoc to be a preferable job to the permanent position, in which case why are you even considering the permanent position at all? For my predecessors in the postdoc I will hold next year, it has been pretty standard to apply for tenure-track jobs before the end of the postdoc, ask for the start date to be deferred, and then have the hiring university grant that request. It works out well for both sides-- the postdocs are happy to get a good tenure-track job, and the hiring universities are happy to land someone of this caliber and know that another year at the postdoc is just going to help their new hire’s career. Again, it wasn’t an unreasonable request within academia, it was just tone-deaf for the kind of institution she was working with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-college-fail-to-negotiate-in-good-faith-or-did-this-applicant-deserve-what-she-got/684031.md?page=9)