# Did this dog need to be shot or not? (video) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 26, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204 "2012-11-26T22:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/21 "2012-11-28T03:29:47Z")
You left out night stick. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/22 "2012-11-28T05:57:26Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > You folks go face an enraged pit that is dragging the animal control officer around and is turning toward you Enraged? I see a scared dog. And “turning toward you” is not much of a threat if you have a catch pole in place…_that’s why they are used_. > [@usedtobe](#): > > How do I know it was trained? How else would an animal learn to response aggressively to a friggin tazer I don’t have the faintest idea what you’re talking about. No one trains dogs to “attack when tasered,” but more to the point, the article says the dog retreated / tried to flee when tasered. If you’re going to claim _something else_ happened when the dog was tasered, you’re doing so in contradiction of witnesses. > [@usedtobe](#): > > Pits have very different jaws than Staffordsshires. They are also lower and wider - as close as I could tell, that was a dog not far removed from the fighting version of line. This is astoundingly untrue – it shows a complete and thorough lack of understanding. “Pits” ARE Staffordshires – not only are the three breeds commonly called pit bulls the American Pit Bull Terrier, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and the American Staffordshire Terrier, but the AmStaff was specifically “created” from renamed APBTs to get around the AKC’s unwillingness to be associated with dogfighting – many dogs even today are dual registered as AmStaffs and APBTs. Even if you want to call them separate breeds, there is NO (zero) mechanical difference in the dogs’ bone structure. Also bite force is not unique in pit bulls – it appears to depend mostly on dog size / body mass. [http://www.pbrc.net/mediacenter/mediaqa.html](http://www.pbrc.net/mediacenter/mediaqa.html) Also, _so what_ if the dog was a fighting dog? Fighting dogs are bred _to be docile toward humans_; recognized authorities have long said you are in more danger from a guarding breed than a fighting breed. Closer to your point, Michael Vick wasn’t afraid to kill his fighting pit bulls with his bare, 100-million-dollar hands…because he wasn’t especially afraid of the dogs, period. A fighting dog on a catchpole is no different than any other dog on a catchpole, and pit is a darned sight smaller than, say, a Mastiff. > [@usedtobe](#): > > There are reasons shelters kill pits without trying to place or even “rehab” them. Much the same reasons vets volunteer their time to spay/neuter breed. Christ, vets neuter [Papillons](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papillon_%28dog%29) and miniature poodles and cats – are you in a state of perpetual terror? There was a time when everyone agreed women shouldn’t vote and black people should be slaves – and “there were reasons” for those ideas, so they must be right? Wrong, wrong, wrong; please educate yourself! ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/23 "2012-11-28T07:16:14Z")
> [@Terraplane](#): > > Yes, even though 20% of this officers shots went wild, the best course of action would have been for him to shoot even more. What’s 10 stray rounds flying around the neighborhood when there’s a dog sitting in a garage? > > Of course, you’re right that we should consider that this dog obviously attended Pit Bull Special Forces Training, where it learned to withstand being tasered. It would be foolish to assume that what you see is a completely normal panic response from an animal encountering severe pain. Everybody knows that most dogs, on being tasered, would calmly lie in a prone position and wait to be taken into custody. > > Thank you for bringing some well measured logic into this otherwise unreasonable discussion. And thank YOU and the rest of the commenters here and the guy who took the video (all of who I will bet have NEVER held a job in animal control) for thinking you all know better than the people who actually had to deal with the situation and somehow just know there should be a better way. I invite you all to volunteer to take care of all such situations and assume **full** responsibility, including your own medical bills and those of everyone bitten after you intervene. > [@billfish678](#): > > Yes, this tasering the dog thing is dumber than shit. A human tasered might have enough sense to stop fighting when the tasering is over. Rodney King. “Might”, indeed. > [@FlyByNight512](#): > > I’ve seen footage of a police officer being charged by a loose dog that really looked like it wanted to take a chunk out of him. The police officer tazed the dog, the dog screamed in pain and ran off. And from that one piece of footage you know with absolute certainty that a tased dog will ALWAYS run away and will NEVER bite the next person it runs into. The owner is responsible for keeping the dog under control. If he doesn’t that, those on the scene have the final call. This is an unfortunate incident, but I will NOT second-guess those who actually had to handle it. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/24 "2012-11-28T09:08:15Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > … > > I don’t have the faintest idea… and it shows equating the suppression of a breed bred to kill with slavery takes “having the faintest” to an entirely new level. You go handle the nest vicious pit that the animal control officer can’t control - maybe rub its tummy or give it a nice treat. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/25 "2012-11-28T14:29:21Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > And thank YOU and the rest of the commenters here and the guy who took the video (all of who I will bet have NEVER held a job in animal control) for thinking you all know better than the people who actually had to deal with the situation and somehow just know there should be a better way. I invite you all to volunteer to take care of all such situations and assume **full** responsibility, including your own medical bills and those of everyone bitten after you intervene. It is not very difficult to predict what will likely happen if you taser an animal and then corner it. The animal is going to be in a high state of panic. Do you dispute this? > [@](#): > > The owner is responsible for keeping the dog under control. If he doesn’t that, those on the scene have the final call. This is an unfortunate incident, but I will NOT second-guess those who actually had to handle it. Your right, this is the more responsible thing to do. Never question the police. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/26 "2012-11-28T14:38:06Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > equating the suppression of a breed bred to kill with slavery takes “having the faintest” to an entirely new level Oh my god, can we just STOP the perpetuation of this completely wrong statement. Pitbulls are not bred to kill, they were for decades a breed that was often referred to as Nanny dogs because they were so gentle with children and yet protective of anything that came near then. Even if we look at modern day training by morons, the dogs are trained to fight other dogs, they’re not trained to kill humans. Your statements would be more applicable although still untrue and unfair to the dogs if applied to German Shepards, the favorite dog for police service and guard dogs. They are trained to attack and restrain humans. Breed bans are one of the more moronic attempts by governments to find a way to penalize those who aren’t idiots to avoid actually having to deal with those who are. Seriously, actually deal with people who don’t control their dogs, or train them to attack, don’t just say “Well since the evil doers like pitbulls due to their jaw strength lets just ban pitbulls. That will fix the problem, I’m sure they won’t just move on to another breed” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/27 "2012-11-28T14:42:43Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > And from that one piece of footage you know with absolute certainty that a tased dog will ALWAYS run away and will NEVER bite the next person it runs into. You missed the point. You only tase a dog if you WANT it to panic or run away. Is that what the cops were trying to do? Is that what they wanted to happen? I doubt that. They were stupid to tase the animal. It only made things worse and made it more likely it would get out of control or run away. What they probably did was use their “this is how we deal with unruley or dangerous human suspects” training and applied it directly and wrongly to a dog. As for the gun shot. That might be more of a you had to be there (and know all the facts that the video and story probably don’t tell). But at first glance the dog did not appear to be running the neighborhood attacking people. Or acting particulary aggressive. IMO, statistically speaking, the officers placed other humans at greater danger due to being shot (very much the animal control officer and to some extent little Johnny who gets hit by a stray bullet) that humans in the area faced from getting attacked by the dog. I am a serious dog lover. And very rarely am I actually afraid of them. However, I know that sometimes dogs need macing, shooting, or euthanizing. So, in this case the fact that a perhaps an innocent dog got shot and killed really isn’t what bothers me. It’s the counterproductive tasing and the rather dangerous gunfire. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/28 "2012-11-28T17:13:50Z")
According to the Pit thread on this subject, the officers’ actions have been ruled justified in three different reviews, though a lawsuit is pending. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/29 "2012-11-28T17:30:47Z")
Oops, sorry, it was pointed out in the Pit thread that it was talking about a different incident. Okay, a different dog was tased and shot in Washington state. There’s a Pit thread on the subject. Comparisons and contrasts might be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/30 "2012-11-28T17:40:30Z")
> [@Moonlitherial](#): > > Pitbulls are not bred to kill, they were for decades a breed that was often referred to as Nanny dogs because they were so gentle with children and yet protective of anything that came near then. I have a pit, and love him to death, but I think this is a bit of urban legendry. I can’t find any evidence that they were historically called nanny dogs, except from pitbull advocacy sites. Like I said, I love the breed, but I don’t think spreading what appears to be misinformation to be useful. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/31 "2012-11-28T20:01:57Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Did anyone consider just closing the garage door since it was in the corner in its bed? Noone on the scene, including the neighbor who called the cops and was filming the thing, knew that the dog belonged there. The homeowner was petsitting for a relative and the dog got out when she left. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/32 "2012-11-28T20:05:05Z")
Close the door and then contact the owner of the house. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/33 "2012-11-28T20:17:44Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > and it shows > > equating the suppression of a breed bred to kill with slavery takes “having the faintest” to an entirely new level. > > You go handle the nest vicious pit that the animal control officer can’t control - maybe rub its tummy or give it a nice treat. I don’t know what’s wrong with you – your attitude here is the classic fear of something you don’t understand. You do realize, don’t you, from your own extensive knowledge of the subject, that prejudice against pit bulls is often compared to other kinds of prejudice by recognized dog experts because the analogy works so precisely. It IS prejudice, plain and simple, and it’s perpetuated in very similar ways. You also seem entirely unaware that most breeds of dogs were “bred to kill.” Entire categories of dogs (with the notable exception of lapdogs) were bred to chase, attack, and/or kill some kind of animal. “Bred to kill” sounds cool and scary, but it’s mostly meaningless. **No** pit bull has been _bred_ to kill _humans_, and it’s notoriously hard to _train_ them to attack humans. I notice you have no response to being called out on your “Staffordshire” claim. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/34 "2012-11-28T20:37:34Z")
Let’s do some more exegesis. > [@usedtobe](#): > > Kindly explain how this cute little doggy withstood 2 shots with a tazer and was still able to pull the Animal Control Officer at will was NOT an immediate threat? Uh…OK, I’ll start. You do understand, don’t you, that the person reporting the dog says the dog was not threatening anyone? So, we’re _starting_ from a situation where the dog is no threat. Now, the police tasered the dog twice and the dog tried to run…is running away from an attacker a threat? I hope you’re not in charge of any decisions that affect anyone else. > [@usedtobe](#): > > As noted, the dog was not only pulling the officer at will, but was whipping its head around in a way that would eventually free it. > A dog actually under the control of a catch pole stays where the person holding it desires; hardly the case here. Uh, the dog was pulling away and the animal control officer did move with the dog, yes. But that’s part of how you get a panicked animal under control. I watched the video, I’ve seen video of many catchpole operations, and I wouldn’t characterize the dog as acting “at will.” Chloe was losing the contest for control and would be secured within a few more seconds. > [@usedtobe](#): > > A frightened pit bull trained to the point of withstanding the pain of a tazer and still be fighting is NOT something I want running around a neighborhood with children. Well, the fear and the taser (also the fusillade of bullets) were the contributions of your friendly neighborhood public safety officers. The pit bull, remember, was described as “not threatening” before that. > [@usedtobe](#): > > And why was it referred to as “a large breed dog”. You don’t call a chihuahua a “small breed dog”, Okay, I don’t see what you’re getting at here. Pit bulls are NOT “large breed dogs,” all three breeds commonly called pit bulls are considered “medium.” So I don’t know why the term was used in the article, and I agree it’s weird to see it there. I do note that the _police_ are quoted as calling the dog a “large _pit bull_,” which might just mean large _for a pit bull_. Incidentally, the two competing breed standards for female American Pt Bull Terriers put the weight range at 25-50 pounds. > [@usedtobe](#): > > and it’s not like pit bulls look so much like other breeds that they cannot be differentiated. Well, it’s well-known that people, including police officers, have a poor record of accurately identifying pit bulls, in part because a lot of breeds do look like them. So there is difficulty in differentiating them, pretty often. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/35 "2012-11-28T21:07:55Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > According to the Pit thread on this subject, the officers’ actions have been ruled justified in three different reviews, though a lawsuit is pending. The precedent for lawsuits are not in favor of the dog owner. Maybe the laws are different there but here it is property and you can only recover the amount of the replacement cost even if you were to win a lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/36 "2012-11-28T22:52:29Z")
I’ve killed dogs for less. But 5 shots? That officer needs to put in more time at the range. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/37 "2012-11-29T00:11:29Z")
He shouldn’t have been shooting live fire at all. At one point the animal control officer was directly behind the dog and in the line of fire, and the cop is still shooting. It’s pure luck that there was no stray or pass-through bullet that hit her. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/38 "2012-11-29T17:24:38Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > You do realize, don’t you, from your own extensive knowledge of the subject, that prejudice against pit bulls is often compared to other kinds of prejudice by recognized dog experts because the analogy works so precisely. It IS prejudice, plain and simple, and it’s perpetuated in very similar ways. And you do realize, don’t you, when you compare “prejudice” against certain dogs to fucking **slavery** , you offend and turn off a large number of people who might otherwise be willing to listen to you? They’re dogs. They’re not people. There’s nothing wrong with not treating them like people. I swear, every time you post crap like this, I get an irresistible urge to go kick a puppy. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/39 "2012-11-29T22:12:24Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > And you do realize, don’t you, when you compare “prejudice” against certain dogs to fucking **slavery** , you offend and turn off a large number of people who might otherwise be willing to listen to you? They’re dogs. They’re not people. There’s nothing wrong with not treating them like people. I swear, every time you post crap like this, I get an irresistible urge to go kick a puppy. _Horse crap_. The problem is in you. I don’t doubt you get the urge to hurt a puppy; you appear to be so threatened by the idea that an animal might suffer injustice that it makes you react angrily. Let’s get a few things out of the way. You don’t need to put “prejudice” in quotes; if the word has any meaning, it applies here. People are making judgments out of fear about something they do not know much about. I’m not sure _why_ your ego is too tender to share the slavery comparison with anyone else, but let’s be clear: the term slavery has already been applied to nonhumans. In fact, the main defense offered by slaveholders in the American South was that the slaves _are not human and do not deserve equal consideration_ – the exact, precise argument YOU make. Saying “it’s not as bad when done to nonhumans” is perilously close to adopting the slaveholders’ argument as your own. Remember, you can’t come back and say “but the slaves _were_ human,” because of course, they were NOT, in the legal sense, in the rights sense, in Justice Taney’s judicial sense, and _in the view of many at the time_, maybe not even in the biological sense. Anyway, I didn’t say “pit bulls are enslaved;” I said: > [@](#): > > There was a time when everyone agreed women shouldn’t vote and black people should be slaves – and “there were reasons” for those ideas, so they must be right? in response to someone who asserted that he’d heard [what I know to be hateful and wrong] things so they must be true. **And there I’m on indisputably solid ground.** It is **true** that slavery and suppression of women were defended by vile, wrong-headed assertions, lies, and myths. And we now know (or admit) these things were wrong, even though “respectable” people asserted them. My claim that just because you’ve heard bad things about \ does not mean they’re true" is 100% supportable, and frankly, not that unusual. I’m not sure why you conflated _that_ with the claim that abuse of helpless nonhumans is vaguely equivalent to abuse of helpless humans we consider to be nonmhumans; but I could comfortably defend that position just as easily, had I actually taken it. I assume you’re not changing your position, though, because you consider it acceptable to threaten to hurt innocents to try and silence me, so you’re a certain kind of person. Ah well. For the general readership: [ul] [li]Dog breeds are at least somewhat analogous to human races: they look different, but they all interbreed[/li] [li]Hatred of particular breeds has a long history: Bloodhounds were once feared manhunters; Dobermans, German Shepherds, and Rottweilers have all spent time in the press’s and public’s doghouse as Dangerous Dogs[/li] [li]Dog experts agree there’s no rationale to fear pit bulls more than other large active dogs[/li] [li]Many myths and exaggerations circulate about those breeds we fear[/li] [li]News stories once ran headlines like “A black man is sought in connection with the assault;” now they seem to realize that feeds prejudice without being very helpful in crimestopping. But they still run headlines like “a pit bull attacked,” often even when the case is demonstrably NOT pit-bull-related ([example](http://www.ocala.com/article/20100220/ARTICLES/100229983): the dogs in this case were American Bulldogs, but persistently referred to as “pit bulls” by the press, even after one paper acknowledged the “error”)[/li][/ul] Nothing in those bullet points is the least bit controversial. Ok, so, to recap: dog breeds are a bit like races; there’s definitely a history of hatred, fear, and mythmaking against some breeds; fear, and mythmaking are hallmarks of prejudice…but _saying_ prejudice exists against some breeds is _so evil you want to harm puppies?_ One of us is indeed going to turn off readers, I’ll give you that. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204/40 "2012-11-29T22:13:43Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > I’ve killed dogs for less. Yes, in _every_ pet thread you have to come in and say something hostile to animals. Well, congrats, check off another one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-dog-need-to-be-shot-or-not-video/642204.md?page=3)