# Did this guy quit, or did I fire him? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 11, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780 "2015-03-11T20:44:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/61 "2015-03-12T21:52:10Z")
Quitter. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/62 "2015-03-12T22:23:20Z")
> [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > . His scheduled, stated work day is 9-6, but he decided several weeks ago (without discussing it with me) that since he didn’t take a lunch break, he would be working 10-6. Out of curiosity, assuming he was in fact taking no other breaks, do you have a policy that break times must be approved or not taken within a certain amount of time of the start/end of day? If not you may wish to implement such policies to avoid such incidents in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/63 "2015-03-12T22:24:48Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > This. > > He’s someone else’s problem now. UI rates don’t change that much for one claim. It’s only a couple of bucks. Actually … I suspect other employees were well aware of what a loser this guy was. It is a really bad thing to let one guy like this ride - others wonder why they are showing up on time if this guy doesn’t and gets away with it. I know there are all sorts of confidentiality requirements and the like, but if a rumor about him had to circulate it would be much better if the rumor said that he got fired as opposed to slacking off until he decided to quit after taking advantage of the company for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/64 "2015-03-13T00:52:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > . . . but if a rumor about him had to circulate it would be much better if the rumor said that he got fired as opposed to slacking off until he decided to quit after taking advantage of the company for a while. Actually it would be much better if the rumor said he tried to apply for unemployment and got turned down. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/65 "2015-03-13T01:25:50Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > Quit but learned he can’t get unemployment if he quits. this ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/66 "2015-03-13T03:33:56Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > It’s not like I’d never excuse someone for this. If they were always on time, and this one time, called me to say they were going to be late - emphasize on the “going to be”, which means they called me before their start time - because of i don’t know, some playoffs or something, I’d be OK with that, even though I am not a sports fan. Nah. Either arrange it in advance (we had a coworker who would travel down to Pats games and arranged the personal time for Monday morning in advance) or call in the morning of and say you will be late for undisclosed reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/67 "2015-03-13T03:59:18Z")
> [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > His scheduled, stated work day is 9-6, but he decided several weeks ago (without discussing it with me) that since he didn’t take a lunch break, he would be working 10-6. Most places I’ve worked, the policy regarding working at lunch is you need approval from management just like working overtime. Also, IIRC, there are state employment laws addressing that issue along with other breaks during the day. I’m in the camp that the employee might try for some kind of lawsuit. “Talking it over” on a phone seems to me to be pretty useless other than to say, “I will explain the situation in an E-mail (or registered letter) to you. Goodbye.” In that E-mail or registered letter, you could cite the company policy and how is current actions are so egregious that he does not qualify for lesser disciplinary actions than termination for cause. Again IIRC, employee discipline policies generally have an “employee offense/management action” matrix to follow. Ensure you follow that matrix if your company has one. If there is none, then get whoever’s supposed to create one onto creating one mighty quickly so you don’t have to deal with another employee similar to the one under discussion now. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/68 "2015-03-13T13:15:31Z")
> [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > Answers to all three questions in #3 are “No”, BTW. To answer the direct question in the OP, I still say he quit. The fact that you have no documentation of his hours, tardiness, etc. does not bode well for you on the unemployment benefit front, though. I think the lack of documentation will end up costing you. Story time - I worked for a mom and pop business (can it still be a mom and pop if they had no kids?) that hit lean times. The “pop” called me in his office one day and said tha they were eliminating the entire office staff except for him and his wife. He further said it was noting to do with performance, just hard times. OK, I get it, thanks for the memories. I applied for UI and a few days later got a call from a UI rep saying my claim had been denied as I was fired for “poor performance”. It seems that “pop” had figured out that letting several people go at once was going to jack up his UI rates considerably and he didn’t want to pay. I asked the UI rep to ask “pop” for any documentation concerning my performance issues. Of course, none existed and the UI claim was quickly approved (and the reason for dismissal changed to “lack of work”). Documentation protects both parties. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/69 "2015-03-13T15:44:12Z")
> [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > His scheduled, stated work day is 9-6, but he decided several weeks ago (without discussing it with me) that since he didn’t take a lunch break, he would be working 10-6. Around here (different country, different rules) that would get you into a world of trouble. It’s your responsibility to make sure he takes his lunch break. It is super super your responsibility to pay him for working his lunch break. You’ve been taking advantage of him by accepting work done during his lunch break? At best that’s constructive dismissal, at worst thats a breach of health and safety regulations which can get you shut down. Different country, different rules, but from this distance “he fired me because I wouldn’t work through lunch breaks” sounds like at least the begining of a case. ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/70 "2015-03-13T16:07:10Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Around here (different country, different rules) that would get you into a world of trouble. It’s your responsibility to make sure he takes his lunch break. It is super super your responsibility to pay him for working his lunch break. > > _You’ve been taking advantage of him_ by accepting work done during his lunch break? At best that’s constructive dismissal, at worst thats a breach of health and safety regulations which can get you shut down. > > Different country, different rules, but from this distance “he fired me because I wouldn’t work through lunch breaks” sounds like at least the begining of a case. Nonsense. I know this is the internet and everything, and I’m not going to lose any sleep over it, but the bit that I italicized actually offends me a little bit. I’m a good boss, and take a keen interest in the happiness and well-being of my employees (in deed and action, not just in words). You can’t know that, as we are strangers, but your assertion that I’m preying upon my employees doesn’t sit well with me at all. He’s a salaried (full-time, exempt) employee, and in the US a 9 hour work day assuming a 1 hour lunch break is a given. If he chooses to skip lunch altogether, take a short lunch, eat at his desk, take a full hour, etc. it is his choice and as an employer I’m not compelled to force him to take a break. If he was an hourly (non-exempt) employee, it would be a totally different story. This particular ex-employee decided he was going to interpret things differently, did so without discussing his conclusions with me, and then changed his work schedule to suit his personal interpretation. He also took pains to hide this from me, and actually had a co-worker covering for him to make it happen. This was occurring outside said co-workers schedule shift. So, I had another employee that was working an extra hour per day to accommodate this employee’s behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/71 "2015-03-13T16:11:54Z")
Yeah, totally different story in this country. Over the last decade, I probably take an hour lunch break maybe once a month, if that. Nobody cares because I’m salaried and exempt. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/72 "2015-03-13T16:32:41Z")
> [@stillownedbysetters](#): > > Send him a termination letter immediately, specifically mentioning all the tardies and that his continued lateness violated your stated company policies. Mention that it constitutes job abandonment. Send it registered mail so he has to sign for it. Once he signs for it, and if he doesn’t contest it, he has accepted it. Just to be clear: you can send whatever you want registered mail, but all their signature means is that they got it, not that they agree with it. And in general, he’s got no obligation to respond to something he disagrees with. It might not be a bad exercise to get down on paper exactly what he’s done that violates company policies, but sending it to him won’t make any legal difference at this point. (It might convince him that a lawsuit is pointless, which is I guess a good outcome, but probably not worth your effort until you think he really is considering it) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/73 "2015-03-13T16:42:00Z")
Oops! Wrong thread. :o ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/74 "2015-03-13T20:46:57Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Just to be clear: you can send whatever you want registered mail, but all their signature means is that they got it, not that they agree with it. And in general, he’s got no obligation to respond to something he disagrees with. Just to add: he’s got no obligation to accept and sign for the registered letter either. It may look bad in any subsequent lawsuit or UI claim if he doesn’t, but your putting work into writing one up doesn’t mean he will ever see it. You might get it returned to you marked ‘Refused’ or simply ‘Unclaimed.’ ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/75 "2015-03-13T22:31:25Z")
Over in Family Law, there is the concept of “Constructive Abandonment” - setting up a situation which cannot be viewed as anything but an attempt to abandon. This guy tried to make the job something it was not, and would not become. His consistent tardiness and absence meant he was not doing his job - and that is all his doing. Document everything, write out the log of who called whom and what was said - time/date is critical. ESPECIALLY THAT HE QUIT on the date and time of 09:00 when he did not show. Had he wanted the job, he would have been there. If the company has internal legal counsel, have a nice bundle of paper and a CD/USB stick with the same data in machine-readable. How long does he have to file for unemployment? ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/76 "2015-03-14T05:54:21Z")
Only tangentially related, but back In high school I had an employer that would, in attempt to get bad employees to quit, drop someone from 20-30 hours a week to 4 hours so they would quit and wouldn’t get unemployment. I always thought it was shady as hell. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/77 "2015-03-14T18:33:30Z")
I disagree that he was fired. He was given an ultimatum: Be on time or you will be fired. He was insubordinate in refusing to be on time (and no Unemployment Judge is likely to take ‘stayed up late to watch a game and refused to be on time because I was tired’ as a reasonable answer) and then QUIT when faced with an ultimatum to be there at his required start time. ---
**Author:** ![edwardcoast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cab0a1/32.png) [@edwardcoast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwardcoast)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/78 "2015-03-15T08:01:35Z")
> [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > Background: One of my Drones, from Sector 7G, has been having chronic tardiness issues, and frequent absences from the office. He called out on Monday, notifying me by text message 45 minutes _after_ his scheduled start time, that he would not be in. I had a phone conversation with him about an hour later, telling him the behavior wasn’t acceptable and would not be tolerated. I told him he needed to be in the office yesterday (Tuesday), _on time_, and be prepared to discuss his future with the company, which I made clear he was jeopardizing. We agreed he should be in the office at 9:00 AM, and not be late (he has been chronically late for weeks and weeks). He texted me late Monday night, and said he would be in at 10:00 AM, as he was staying up late watching basketball. I replied and told him if he wasn’t going to be there by 9:00 AM, to not bother coming in at all. His reply was that he would mail in his company equipment. Early yesterday morning, he texted me again, and told me that he once again was not going to be in. > > I sent him an email around noon yesterday indicating I accepted his resignation (based on his message saying he would mail his kit back to the home office), but he asserts I fired him. > > I think that if your boss tells you to come into the office to discuss your poor performance, and you refuse, telling him instead that you’ll mail your shit back to him, you’ve quit. If you fired him “for cause” then he won’t get unemployment. But if he claims he wasn’t fired, he can appeal and that causes you or someone from your company to go to the arbitration and waste time with it. I guess it depends on how you feel about all this and if the cost of paying his unemployment is going to cause you a financial hardship or not. If he truly feel he resigned, then stick with it that he resigned. Let him go to unemployment and say otherwise and you will fight it so he doesn’t get the unemployment. What is important is that you document everything. I’m not an attorney, but if you have an HR dept and/or a company attorney of course run all this by him or her. Have the attorney on behalf of the company send him a registered letter stating the facts and that he resigned or that he was fired “for cause” and not available for re-hire with the company. Watching a basketball game? What a scumbag, glad you are rid of him either way! ---
**Author:** ![edwardcoast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cab0a1/32.png) [@edwardcoast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwardcoast)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/79 "2015-03-15T08:21:39Z")
> [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > This particular ex-employee decided he was going to interpret things differently, did so without discussing his conclusions with me, and then changed his work schedule to suit his personal interpretation. He also took pains to hide this from me, and actually had a co-worker covering for him to make it happen. This was occurring outside said co-workers schedule shift. So, I had another employee that was working an extra hour per day to accommodate this employee’s behavior. Above and beyond that, you give him (for lack of a better term) a direct order to report to work and he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![edwardcoast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cab0a1/32.png) [@edwardcoast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwardcoast)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780/80 "2015-03-15T08:27:00Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Just to be clear: you can send whatever you want registered mail, but all their signature means is that they got it, not that they agree with it. And in general, he’s got no obligation to respond to something he disagrees with. > > It might not be a bad exercise to get down on paper exactly what he’s done that violates company policies, but sending it to him won’t make any legal difference at this point. (It might convince him that a lawsuit is pointless, which is I guess a good outcome, but probably not worth your effort until you think he really is considering it) One of the points of the registered letter is so he can’t show up to the arbitration and claim “Well, this is the first I’m hearing about this!”. It also shows there is formal language involved here and to make him aware that you are serious about your actions. In other words, if the letter is written properly like it came from the company’s attorney and he had to sign for it, he is going to know you mean business. The ex-employee sounds like such a slacker that after a few days of watching sports he’s going to decide not to fight unemployment once he is denied. Or if he says he will, he is unlikely to show up (a history he is known for). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-this-guy-quit-or-did-i-fire-him/714780.md?page=5)