# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/201 "2012-06-04T19:23:43Z")
> [@David42](#): > > The right to free speech is seen as flowing from the value of the open exchange of ideas. Sometimes free speech, if it is given for other purposes, such as yours, which appears to be increasing trolling, isn’t seen as a virtue. > > In any case, I was more hoping that you’d catch on that if you desire me to ignore the Constitution and the rule of Law, you are the first one I’d be willing to violate it for. To the moderator—are you going to warn David42 publicly for calling me a troll? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/202 "2012-06-04T19:24:52Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Unless I missed an earlier warning, it might be prudent to warn on claims of lies and lying, too, as **al** was doing that a few posts back, as well. Are you the moderator? Calling me a troll and expecting not to get warned for it sounds you think you’re a moderator here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/203 "2012-06-04T19:51:14Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > It’s funny you mention that, I get the exact same reading from the opposition. I’m curious, for example, if we were to plop **Bricker** _et al_. in the early 19th century, would they fight what’s right or would they shrug and say, “Separate but equal! It’s the law! It has to be right!” or “It’s not against the law to have an all-white jury! Therefore it’s moral and OK with me!” What the law-people don’t get is that the “law” is not fair, equitable or right; therefore, I don’t treat it as some edict etched in stone from Mt. Sinai and, frankly, neither should you. MLK says it the best: Depends on the context. Let’s consider the all-white jury. Until fairly recently, it was permissible for a prosecutor (or a defense attorney) to use his peremptory strikes to remove minorities from the jury. It wasn’t until Batson v Kentucky, in 1986, that the Supreme Court decided that a defendant who was tried by an all-white jury because the prosecutor deliberately used his challenges to remove minorities violated the Constitutional guarantees to a fair trial. So – what would I do in 1960? If I were sitting in judgement of a prosecutor who was accused of misconduct because he used his challenges to obtain an all-white jury, I would not sanction him. Because his conduct wasn’t improper at the time. It’s not for me, as a member of the attorney disciplinary committee, to make the law. I have to serve as a judge and decide if certain conduct violated the law. It 1960, it didn’t. Now let’s change the scenario. In 1960, I’m the Governor of a state whose legislature has passed a law forbidding jury challenges to be used to eliminate on the basis of race. I sign the law. Because – although I could veto it – my role as governor is to sign into law those laws which I believe to be wise. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/204 "2012-06-04T20:11:28Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > IOW, you’re an extremist. That’s the hallmark of all extremists, a willingness to violate free speech. Not very willing. But for people who time and again go over and over the same ground, adding nothing new, refusing to take stock of explanations, learn where there mistake is, or point out how someone else is wrong, insult people, and just generally go on and on and on that your sensibilities trump the law, well, no, I’m not too upset if they are made to shut up. It’s the “free and open exchange of ideas” that I strongly support. It’s not extremism that it’s ok to limit free speech in certain instances, first where it can cause harm, and secondly, where it impairs the free and open echange of ideas, like you are doing. We all understand your point, you ahte Zimmerman and refuse to give him the protections of the law. I’ve got no problem saying a reasonable person would have shut up by now, which I encourage you to do, unless you have a new point you’d like to make. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/205 "2012-06-04T20:16:49Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Are you the moderator? Calling me a troll and expecting not to get warned for it sounds you think you’re a moderator here. Excuse me, I apologize. Let me retract that statement and say instead you appear to increasingly impair the function of the board with inflammatory statements. So far as I know, it is perfectly ok here to call a violation fo the rules to the attention of the moderators. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/206 "2012-06-04T20:16:55Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Not very willing. But for people who time and again go over and over the same ground, adding nothing new, refusing to take stock of explanations, learn where there mistake is, or point out how someone else is wrong, insult people, and just generally go on and on and on that your sensibilities trump the law, well, no, I’m not too upset if they are made to shut up. > > It’s the “free and open exchange of ideas” that I strongly support. It’s not extremism that it’s ok to limit free speech in certain instances, first where it can cause harm, and secondly, where it impairs the free and open echange of ideas, like you are doing. > > We all understand your point, you ahte Zimmerman and refuse to give him the protections of the law. > > I’ve got no problem saying a reasonable person would have shut up by now, which I encourage you to do, unless you have a new point you’d like to make. I guess you ARE a mod, since you haven’t been warned for calling me a troll. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/207 "2012-06-04T20:54:59Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I guess you ARE a mod, since you haven’t been warned for calling me a troll. I suppose I will leave the thread and not chance the trouble, even though I have an unanswered question posed to **Bricker**. Until such time, that is, that you either voluntarily or forcefully stop what you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/208 "2012-06-04T21:03:13Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I suppose I will leave the thread and not chance the trouble, even though I have an unanswered question posed to **Bricker**. > > Until such time, that is, that you either voluntarily or forcefully stop what you’re doing. Dude, I see no reason to think he doesn’t mean what he says, nor that mods will do anything; there really are people that dumb, and the SDMB rule is that you can be as dumb as you want as long as the mods think you’re sincere. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/209 "2012-06-04T22:08:18Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Dude, I see no reason to think he doesn’t mean what he says, nor that mods will do anything; there really are people that dumb, and the SDMB rule is that you can be as dumb as you want as long as the mods think you’re sincere. To the moderator—are you planning to do anything here, or do you just check the threads once a day? I’d Pit all you who disagree with me, but you’re not worth the energy. I am shocked, sickened, and saddened by the groundswell of support for Zimmerman, both here and elsewhere on the internet. Apparently I have been quite naive about the intensity of the undercurrent of hate that runs through this country. Just because someone isn’t shouting about how much hate they have, doesn’t mean they don’t have it. I honestly had almost no idea. Lesson learned, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/210 "2012-06-04T22:12:56Z")
**David42** and **al27052** : I am instructing both of you to stop bickering about the rules and to stop junior moderating. If you think someone else has broken the rules, use the ‘Report this Post’ function. Don’t accuse other people of breaking the rules, don’t call people liars, don’t accuse them of trolling, and don’t insult them. I hope this is clear enough for both of you. If it happens again, I will warn either or both of you. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/211 "2012-06-04T22:17:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **David42** and **al27052** : I am instructing both of you to stop bickering about the rules and to stop junior moderating. If you think someone else has broken the rules, use the ‘Report this Post’ function. Don’t accuse other people of breaking the rules, don’t call people liars, don’t accuse them of trolling, and don’t insult them. I hope this is clear enough for both of you. If it happens again, I will warn either or both of you. I apologized and do so again. I did not intend to do any junior modding; this all got started when I simply pointed out to you that there were other issues as well as the one you had caught. I suppose it is better to not post it in the thread and that’s the course I will take in the future if I think you missed something. Does a warning on calling someone a troll (which I didn’t actually directly say, but did imply it) extend to a statement such as I said in #205? or is that ok? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/212 "2012-06-04T22:20:10Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Does a warning on calling someone a troll (which I didn’t actually directly say, but did imply it) extend to a statement such as I said in #205? or is that ok? It’s not against the rules since it’s a comment on his statements rather than **al27052** as a person, but it doesn’t add much to the discussion. And **furt** , you can’t call another poster dumb in this forum either. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/213 "2012-06-04T22:35:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s not against the rules since it’s a comment on his statements rather than **al27052** as a person, but it doesn’t add much to the discussion. And **furt** , you can’t call another poster dumb in this forum either. Gotcha. I agree, it’s not the best argument technique. I will sincerely keep it in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/214 "2012-06-06T03:29:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Will you please answer my question - how did Zimmerman fake this? > > Regards, > Shodan I have no idea. Maybe a friendly doctor? Black eyes might not show up until later, but a broken nose is gonna bleed, and the earliest evidence we have, not some medical report days later, is video of Zimmerman with no blood on his shirt and looking quite hale and healthy. Martin did not physically harm Zimmerman, and pedestrians being followed by vehicles have a general right to feel threatened. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/215 "2012-06-06T03:38:34Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I’ve been hauled into the cop shop a couple times; once after a fight that had left me kind of muddy. They let me go into the bathroom and clean up. I doubt that they’d just sit there and ignore blood pouring out of zimmerman’s nose. I have no doubt that they’d at least give him some tissues. > > Does the video at the cop shop cover all activities Zimmerman engaged in while there, or is it only partial? > > (In my case, a deranged guy had been picking fights and then disappearing when the cops showed up. Finally he picked one with me, I beat him down and made a citizen’s arrest and held him for the cops, I was getting sick of it. As I beat him fairly badly, I had to go down and explain it, as well as several witnesses explaining it. They let me walk on self-defense. The criminal got three counts of battery and two of aggravated battery and one attempted murder, all convictions, out of the deal and sits in prison, the last I knew.) If you’d watched the video you’d have seen Zimmerman as he stepped out of the car at the police station. No blood, and a fully broken nose bleeds a lot more than you can clean up with tissues. As for who is the weirdo criminal in this case, its Zimmerman. He was exactly the same kind of psycho who attacked you, except he had a gun. Listen to the 911 recordings. Dude was hyped for the kill, just like the dude you fought was hyped. I am glad he didn’t have a gun like Zimmerman did or you most probably would be no longer with us. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/216 "2012-06-06T03:46:44Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I hope this isn’t too much of a hijack, but to the conservatives here (especially Bricker and Shodan) what specifically do you not like about Florida’s SYG law? I’ve always felt that a law abiding citizen shouldn’t be required to run squealing into the night when attacked. That gives the streets to the criminals. If I’m minding my own business, and in a place where I have a legal right to be, why should I have to leave that location so that the criminal can continue his malfeasance? I agree, and I’m a bleeding heart liberal and recent crime victim. So, why should someone like Martin be stalked by a hyped up loser like Zimmerman. Martin was just walking back to his dad’s girlfriend’s house, minding his own business. He didn’t need to be followed. And the 911 dispatcher confirmed this to Zimmerman. There were no criminals conducting malfeasence until Zimmerman, followed, confronted, and killed. Those are the facts we know. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/217 "2012-06-06T04:07:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have no heartburn with the basic idea of standing ground. > > But if you do, the burden should rest on you to prove you acted in accord with the law. So my disagreement with the law in Florida relates to the way it shifts the burden of proof to the state. Well, that would be just regular self defense law, which was always quite adequate. But the Florida SYG law seems to create a paradox where both Martin (if he had attacked, and there is no reliable evidence he did) and Zimmerman could both have been justified, though I think the 911 tapes show Zimmerman in a bad light. Holmes was hyped. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/218 "2012-06-06T04:22:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Trayvon was absolutely armed. He was armed with his fists and all indications are that he used them in an extended beating. It appears that it was after a considerable amount of beating that Zimmerman finally defended himself. Uh, where’s your visual evidence? I seem to be the only one posting actual evidence here. I’ve posted video of Zimmerman getting out of a police car all hale and healthy. I’ve posted a link where you can listen to all of Zimmerman’s hyped up 911 calls. Where are your pictures of Zimmerman’s bloody nose? Where are the black eyes? I want evidence. I have posted evidence that there was no beatdown. I have posted evidence that Zimmerman was hyped for action. And I would totally bet that if I were to follow you in my car as you walked, you’d feel threatened. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/219 "2012-06-06T04:48:46Z")
Guys, you can have a broken nose without having a bloody nose. > [@Mayo Clinic](#): > > Signs and symptoms of a broken nose may appear immediately or may take up to three days to develop. Signs and symptoms may include: > > ``` > Pain or tenderness, especially when touching your nose > Swelling of your nose and surrounding areas > Bleeding from your nose > Bruising around your nose or eyes > Crooked or misshapen nose > Difficulty breathing through your nose > Discharge of mucus from your nose (rhinorrhea) > Feeling that one or both of your nasal passages are blocked > > ``` Do people commonly get a bloody nose when their nose is broken? Yes. Can you have a broken nose without any exterior bleeding? Yes. Also, if it isn’t a severe break it might take many hours before it’s apparent that the nose is broken. This shouldn’t be a big surprise to any of us who have been severely bruised. Often times the injury looks much worse after a day or two than it did on the day of the injury. > **[Broken nose-Broken nose - Symptoms & causes - Mayo Clinic](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/broken-nose/symptoms-causes/syc-20370439)** > > A broken nose can cause pain, swelling and bruising around your nose and eyes. Surgery usually isn't necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/220 "2012-06-06T12:15:20Z")
> [@Rampant\_Coypu](#): > > I have no idea. Maybe a friendly doctor? Also friendly police, pictures, medical reports, etc. > [@](#): > > Martin did not physically harm Zimmerman Apart from a broken nose and gashes on his head. > [@](#): > > …pedestrians being followed by vehicles have a general right to feel threatened. We’ve gone over this. No they don’t, not to the extent of using violence. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=12)