# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/261 "2012-06-08T00:03:52Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Where it is someone does not fit is: > > **YOU** on a **JURY**. OK, please stop addressing me. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/262 "2012-06-08T00:12:42Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > …Has anyone on this board, as an adult, got into a fist-fight with a kid?.. The funny thing is, I doubt any of the Zimmerman supporters in this thread would even seriously _consider_ doing something that would quite possibly lead to a fight with a teenage boy. In addition, I bet they would all loudly protest if Zimmerman, with his current known history, moved next door to them tomorrow. The reality is that Zimmerman is a lightning rod for violent drama. His life is a fucking mess. No mature adult wants to live next door to that nonsense, particularly if they are parents of young children. I mean, can you imagine Zimmerman moving in next door, and the Crips or Bloods finding out? Your whole damn _street_ would get shot up. It’s not safe. The man’s life is in danger because he has pissed off the wrong mean dudes. NIMBY…it’s just how it is. Sane folks get it. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/263 "2012-06-08T00:18:22Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > If Zimmerman was acting in some capacity other than vigilante, why didn’t he have some kind of insignia to identify himself with? > > Are neighborhood watches really this fucked up, that they’d send gun wielding paranoid freaks out on dark rainy nights to chase scared kids without so much as a name tag, badge, logo, some way to tell they’re not molesting kidnappers? Apparently Floridians _like_ it this way. _facepalm_ This reminds me of something my dad told me. He has a _massively_ racist friend, we’ll call him…Jack. Jack grew up in a very racist small town in NC, which has several thousand white people, and about 8 black people. When Jack was a teenager, out riding around with his buddies, (back in the 50s), every time they saw a black man walking down the road in/around their town, they’d pull over and tell him, roughly-speaking, “Hey n----r, keep walking. If we catch you out here on the road after dark, we’re going to beat you to death.” And that was normal behavior for that area at the time. I guess Zimmerman, and maybe some…other people, want to make sure the n----rs stay off the streets at night. They’re carrying on a proud tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/264 "2012-06-08T00:39:07Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > You did exactly what a \*normal \*person would do. The normal response when watching for suspicious activity is to _watch and report_, as you did, NOT to go out with a loaded weapon to confront the suspicious person with questions. If I were in Zimmerman’s shoes I sure as hell wouldn’t have exited my vehicle. However, that doesn’t mean Zimmerman did anything illegal by existing his vehicle to look for Martin. > [@](#): > > I’m also curious as to how much legal force a neighborhood watchman has. Is he a paid civil servant or volunteer? No more than any other citizen. They’re not members of law enforcement and if they have any training it’s usually from a watch meeting where a cop shows up and talks about what to look out for. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/265 "2012-06-08T00:41:53Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > If Zimmerman was acting in some capacity other than vigilante, why didn’t he have some kind of insignia to identify himself with? What makes you think watch groups normally have insignias? > [@](#): > > Are neighborhood watches really this fucked up, that they’d send gun wielding paranoid freaks out on dark rainy nights to chase scared kids without so much as a name tag, badge, logo, some way to tell they’re not molesting kidnappers? I believe his watch association specifically forbade members to carry weapons. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/266 "2012-06-08T00:51:27Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > What makes you think watch groups normally have insignias? I was under the impression people thought he was acting on the watch’s behalf. Assuming that and given his behavior, you’d need some identifying system to tell their watch from a creeper, if that’s how they behaved. > [@](#): > > I believe his watch association specifically forbade members to carry weapons. If that’s the case, he wasn’t acting on behalf of their watch, but his own goals, and the claim he was acting on their behalf is debunked. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/267 "2012-06-08T01:18:46Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I was under the impression people thought he was acting on the watch’s behalf. Assuming that and given his behavior, you’d need some identifying system to tell their watch from a creeper, if that’s how they behaved. I can only repeat myself: Neighborhood watches do not typically have insignias that they wear. Whether or not Zimmerman was acting under the auspice of the watch, well, I don’t know. He was the neighborhood watch coordinator but I think that’s mainly because he was the only person who volunteered. I can’t even recall if he spotted Martin while on “patrol” or when coming home from work or an errand. Maybe someone else knows the answer to this. > [@](#): > > If that’s the case, he wasn’t acting on behalf of their watch, but his own goals, and the claim he was acting on their behalf is debunked. I don’t really think it matters one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/268 "2012-06-08T01:42:04Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > OK, please stop addressing me. Ever. Please stop encouraging people to abandon the law in favor of their own sensibilities, and I’d be gald to, in this thread. but anytime you say something wrong, I will likely point it out. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/269 "2012-06-08T01:51:21Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > You did exactly what a \*normal \*person would do. The normal response when watching for suspicious activity is to _watch and report_, as you did, NOT to go out with a loaded weapon to confront the suspicious person with questions. In my mind, whether it’s legal to do so is irrelevant, it’s about whether a normal person would exhibit such behavior in similar circumstances. > > I’m also curious as to how much legal force a neighborhood watchman has. Is he a paid civil servant or volunteer? Has had any formal or informal law enforcement training on how to approach suspicious persons? Does he possess identification (e.g. a badge, certificate) that he is acting as an official liaison for the Sanford Police Department? Apaprently most legislatures feel it is **normal enough** to defend property or another person so that they made it legal. Not everyone is as timid as you ro as willing to let criminals get away as you are. I’m betting you ahve never been the victim of a serious poerson felony and had a bystander fail to help you when they could have. Too many people are all too fearful of our own ahrm to risk saving another, and there are too many instances where seconds count and the police are only minutes away. I find it irresponsible and selfish to not act to defend the persons or the property of others when it is appropriate. I find it (well I won’t say) to actually describe such a state of affairs as “normal.” And of course, if it’s not appropriate to disturb a criminal and they’re not getting away there’s nothing wrong with not taking the risk. But I’d never sit by and just watch someone bust out car windows one after the other. I’d make an arrest. In short, Honesty, if youa re getting harmed you can count on me to stop it if I can and maybe die trying. The other way around, I can be assured you have a front row seat while somebody is killing me. Some kind of glue to hold a society together. I rpefer the other kind of normal, the kind where people are willing to take risks to save others. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/270 "2012-06-08T02:15:43Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Apaprently most legislatures feel it is **normal enough** > > I rpefer the other kind of normal, the kind where people are willing to take risks to save others. I prefer the people taking the risks to not be dangerous vigilantes. I’m more than happy to try and save someone’s life, even at risk to my own, if I think I can actually save them. However, risking my safety to stop a simple B&E, that might be different. It just depends. I’m not a dangerous vigilante, though. I don’t carry a gun. I carry a can of whup-ass instead, and therefore will never kill someone in the heat of the moment and later regret it. The guy who stopped the Christmas Day bomber in 2009 ALSO was armed only with a can of whup-ass. He got the job done, though. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/271 "2012-06-08T02:24:21Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > You did exactly what a \*normal \*person would do. The normal response when watching for suspicious activity is to _watch and report_, as you did, NOT to go out with a loaded weapon to confront the suspicious person with questions. In my mind, whether it’s legal to do so is irrelevant, it’s about whether a normal person would exhibit such behavior in similar circumstances. You can’t watch someone who runs behind a house. This was housing development that put the sidewalks in the back of the houses (this keeps little kids away from the streets). The only way Zimmerman could keep him in sight was to leave his car and follow him. Martin ran/jogged away from Zimmerman after making eye contact. He just screamed suspicious. Zimmerman ran/jogged after him. Clearly that made Martin suspicious. Martin could have continued to his house but he stopped and confronted Zimmerman. He initiated the confrontation. For whatevver reason he went out of his way to confront Zimmerman. The conversation between the two of them was pretty self explanatory on both sides. No threats were made by Zimmerman in the conversation. At this point neither have done anything wrong. The only thing we know after that was that Martin was on top of Zimmerman for an extended period where pleading to stop was heard followed by Zimmerman shooting Martin. > [@Honesty](#): > > I’m also curious as to how much legal force a neighborhood watchman has. Is he a paid civil servant or volunteer? Has had any formal or informal law enforcement training on how to approach suspicious persons? Does he possess identification (e.g. a badge, certificate) that he is acting as an official liaison for the Sanford Police Department? legal force? I’m sorry but WTH? A neighborhood watch is just an organized group of people who watch out for each other. They probably exchange phone numbers so they can contact each other but that would be about as far as it goes. The city might provide a little advice with an outreach program from the police plus a [sign](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://thecommunityword.com/online/files/2007/09/0707_neighborhood_watch_sign_phixr.jpg&imgrefurl=http://thecommunityword.com/online/blog/2007/07/02/peoria-plans-to-revitalize-neighborhood-watch/&h=320&w=241&sz=35&tbnid=hEIuZo9ucKJU6M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=68&zoom=1&usg=__WqS_yFTUKzUr-M3RMKRQV6eYSJk=&docid=adyyRzQZ9QsbiM&sa=X&ei=kWHRT4HcG6SW2AXvooihDw&ved=0CKoBEPUBMAM&dur=1304)if it’s in the city budget. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/272 "2012-06-08T02:29:07Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I prefer the people taking the risks to not be dangerous vigilantes. I prefer people don’t beat the crap out of me. The difference is that we know Martin was beating Zimmerman yet there is no evidence that Zimmerman acted as a vigilante. He shot him well after the beating began based on the the phone call and the space of time before the call was made. You’re making a baseless claim at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/273 "2012-06-08T02:47:37Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > The guy who stopped the Christmas Day bomber in 2009 ALSO was armed only with a can of whup-ass. He got the job done, though. the guys (plural) on flight 93 all died in a Pennsylvania field. What’s your point? Do you really need someone to sucker punch you once to understand how gravity works? At 135 lbs in HS I was more than capable of putting someone in the hospital. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/274 "2012-06-08T03:07:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the guys (plural) on flight 93 all died in a Pennsylvania field. What’s your point? Do you really need someone to sucker punch you once to understand how gravity works? At 135 lbs in HS I was more than capable of putting someone in the hospital. My point might be that Trayvon and Zimmerman BOTH would probably still be alive if there hadn’t been a gun that night. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/275 "2012-06-08T03:12:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I prefer people don’t beat the crap out of me. The difference is that we know Martin was beating Zimmerman yet there is no evidence that Zimmerman acted as a vigilante. He shot him well after the beating began based on the the phone call and the space of time before the call was made. > > You’re making a baseless claim at this point. Zimmerman was acting outside the reasonable scope of his role by continuing to chase Trayvon on nothing more than age/race/clothing-based profiling. He was carrying a gun, and used it on an unarmed teenager. You’re going to have to do more than break my nose and smack my head against the sidewalk before I’ll kill you. Zimmerman could have just played dead/unconscious. It doesn’t _matter_ to ME if Zimmerman was malicious or just catastrophically stupid. Either way, people like him _don’t need GUNS_. Why? Demonstrated lack of ability to avoid killing unarmed teenagers walking home at night. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/276 "2012-06-08T03:21:51Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > My point might be that Trayvon and Zimmerman BOTH would probably still be alive if there hadn’t been a gun that night. Maybe. Can you give me some indication as to when Martin was planning to stop? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/277 "2012-06-08T03:33:30Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > You’re going to have to do more than break my nose and smack my head against the sidewalk before I’ll kill you. Zimmerman could have just played dead/unconscious. **PLAY DEAD.** It is utter cruelty to require someone to play dead when being beaten. How inane is this–is it now wrong to even call for help or plead with your attacker? As if you’d play dead when being beaten. RIIIIIIGGGGHHHHHT. The things you ask of others… ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/278 "2012-06-08T03:36:58Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Zimmerman was acting outside the reasonable scope of his role by continuing to chase Trayvon on nothing more than age/race/clothing-based profiling. > > He was carrying a gun, and used it on an unarmed teenager. > > You’re going to have to do more than break my nose and smack my head against the sidewalk before I’ll kill you. Zimmerman could have just played dead/unconscious. Used on a teenager who was physically attacking him. Why did Martin punch Zimmerman that evening? Why, after Zimmerman was knocked to the ground, did Martin continue to physically assult Zimmerman? Is it possible that Zimmerman thought that his life was in danger while his head was being slammed on a concrete sidewalk? Neither Martin or Zimmerman did anything illegal up until the moment Martin began punching Zimmerman. Florida law says that everyone can use lethal force to defend their own lives. Zimmerman was defending his own life. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/279 "2012-06-08T03:38:31Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > You’re going to have to do more than break my nose and smack my head against the sidewalk before I’ll kill you. \*\*Zimmerman could have just played dead/unconscious. \*\* You MUST be joking. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/280 "2012-06-08T03:40:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You MUST be joking. You’ve obviously never visited planet Possum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=15)