# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/281 "2012-06-08T03:46:28Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > My point might be that Trayvon and Zimmerman BOTH would probably still be alive if there hadn’t been a gun that night. Several minutes elapsed between the time Zimmerman lost sight of Martin and their next confrontation. Martin could have ran home in that amout of time. Instead, Martin approached Zimmerman from behind, the two men exchanged a few words, and Martin started punching Zimmerman. If Martin had stopped his assult after knocking Zimmerman to the ground, Martin would still be alive today (maybe). Why did Martin continued to assult Zimmerman? Did Martin believe that the man lying on the ground with a broken nose was somehow a “threat” to him? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/282 "2012-06-08T03:46:53Z")
> [@David42](#): > > **PLAY DEAD.** > > It is utter cruelty to require someone to play dead when being beaten. > > How inane is this–is it now wrong to even call for help or plead with your attacker? > > As if you’d play dead when being beaten. > > RIIIIIIGGGGHHHHHT. > > The things you ask of others… I might play dead if attacked by a bear, and truly couldn’t get away from it. I hear that can fool them. But no, I probably wouldn’t play dead during a beating. It’s not that I’m against it, it’s just that the odds of me actually being so stupid as to get into a situation where someone is actually on top of me, beating me, are _miniscule_. I’m not going to put myself in a position where I have no other options. Besides, I have martial arts training for just such situations. Zimmerman had a _gun_. If you’re going to run around chasing unarmed teenagers at night, it’s pretty short-sighted that your only way to deal with the possibility of being attacked is a gun. Several of you seemed to think that Trayvon deserved to die. Why? I’m honestly curious. I totally get his emotional state. I’ve been _furious_ at someone for scaring me before. I’ve never jumped anyone for it, but I get the anger. Have you never been angry at someone who scared the heck out of you, right after you realize they are completely off-base for doing whatever it was that scared you? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/283 "2012-06-08T03:48:50Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Florida law says that everyone can use lethal force to defend their own lives. Zimmerman was defending his own life. Right, because Trayvon has a history of beating people to _death_. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/284 "2012-06-08T03:51:57Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I can only repeat myself: Neighborhood watches do not typically have insignias that they wear. Whether or not Zimmerman was acting under the auspice of the watch, well, I don’t know. He was the neighborhood watch coordinator but I think that’s mainly because he was the only person who volunteered. I can’t even recall if he spotted Martin while on “patrol” or when coming home from work or an errand. Maybe someone else knows the answer to this. > > I don’t really think it matters one way or the other. I believe Zimmerman was on his way to store (an errand) when he first noticed Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/285 "2012-06-08T03:52:37Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Several of you seemed to think that Trayvon deserved to die. No more so than a teenager who hits a tree while driving 100 mph. Actions have consequences. There’s a difference between saying a person has a right to defend himself and a kid doing something stupid that gets him killed. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/286 "2012-06-08T04:00:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No more so than a teenager who hits a tree while driving 100 mph. Actions have consequences. There’s a difference between saying a person has a right to defend himself and a kid doing something stupid that gets him killed. So what was his crime, being chased by a man with a gun? Trayvon didn’t attack an authority figure…he attacked some random person who scared the holy heck out of him. Sure, Trayvon did something stupid. Zimmerman shot him in the _chest_, though. No warning shot, didn’t wing him, just shot straight at the center of mass. That’s not how a responsible gun owner responds, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/287 "2012-06-08T04:01:51Z")
Even if the appropriate response to a punch is a gunshot, I’m not sure that the appropriate type of gunshot is a shot-to-kill. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/288 "2012-06-08T04:12:30Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Right, because Trayvon has a history of beating people to _death_. Florida self-defense laws don’t ask victims to question their attackers history of violence before using lethal force to defend their own lives. Zimmerman was being attacked by Martin. Martin knocked Zimmerman to the ground and continued to beat him. In Brown v. United States, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said that “Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife” and “there is no duty to retreat from anywhere that a victim has a right to be”. Both Zimmerman and Martin had a right to be in the neighborhood and both had a right to ask each other questions about why they were there. Neither man had a legal right to begin punching the other. Once the fight started and Zimmerman had been knocked to the ground, any “threat” that Martin MIGHT have felt was over. Martin continued to attack Zimmerman. Zimmerman had no time for any “detached reflection”. His life was in danger. Florida law says that anyone can use lethal force to protect their own life. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/289 "2012-06-08T04:14:34Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > So what was his crime, being chased by a man with a gun? Trayvon didn’t attack an authority figure…he attacked some random person who scared the holy heck out of him. > > Sure, Trayvon did something stupid. Zimmerman shot him in the _chest_, though. No warning shot, didn’t wing him, just shot straight at the center of mass. > > That’s not how a responsible gun owner responds, in my opinion. Actually, that’s exactly what the training entails. “Winging” someone only happens in western movies. Generally you’re taught to fire groupings of shots. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/290 "2012-06-08T04:17:55Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Even if the appropriate response to a punch is a gunshot, I’m not sure that the appropriate type of gunshot is a shot-to-kill. Just what is the “appropriate type of gunshot” while you’re being beaten? Zimmerman was lying on his back and calling to his neighbors for help while fending off Martin’s attack. How good do you think your aim would be under those conditions? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/291 "2012-06-08T04:22:26Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Just what is the “appropriate type of gunshot” while you’re being beaten? Zimmerman was lying on his back and calling to his neighbors for help while fending off Martin’s attack. How good do you think your aim would be under those conditions? It was point-blank range. My aim would be near-perfect. Shoot him in the hip or shoulder, for Pete’s sake, if you need a big target. Anywhere but the head or the heart. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/292 "2012-06-08T04:26:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Actually, that’s exactly what the training entails. “Winging” someone only happens in western movies. Generally you’re taught to fire groupings of shots. Oh, OK. Then all you handgun-owning concealed-carry boys are scary as shit, then. He was a TEENAGER. He went to the STORE. The next sentence in that storyline is not supposed to go “Then he got shot to death.” We ALL have a part to play in making sure that kids don’t get killed on the way home from the store. That includes Zimmerman, and he didn’t play his part. And, given that, I don’t think he needs to be carrying a handgun. Whatever else you want to say about Zimmerman carrying a gun, you have to admit that Zimmerman + gun=unfortunate combination. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/293 "2012-06-08T04:26:22Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Even if the appropriate response to a punch is a gunshot, I’m not sure that the **appropriate** type of gunshot is a shot-to-kill. Just what is the “appropriate type of gunshot” while you’re being beaten? Zimmerman was lying on his back and calling to his neighbors for help while fending off Martin’s attack. How good do you think your aim would be under those conditions? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/294 "2012-06-08T04:28:26Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > It was point-blank range. My aim would be near-perfect. Shoot him in the hip or shoulder, for Pete’s sake, if you need a big target Anywhere but the head or the heart. Again, the training involves shooting the center mass. The purpose is to kill your opponent. Wounding invites a fight for control of the gun. Given Martin’s assault that would be the natural outcome of “winging” him - which again is just a movie fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/295 "2012-06-08T04:34:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > …Wounding invites a fight for control of the gun… Wounding a grown man who’s trying to _kill_ you does. Wounding a teenager who might just be really angry that you just scared the shit out of him? Maybe not. It’s not hard to pull off a shoulder or hip shot, then immediately re-point to center of mass. At that point, your opponent has a choice–attack, or back off. If he attacks again, he means to kill you. Just pull the trigger, the gun is already pointed. If he backs off, call 911, get him an ambulance, and perhaps even apply first aid, if it seems safe. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/296 "2012-06-08T04:35:48Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > It was point-blank range. My aim would be near-perfect. Shoot him in the hip or shoulder, for Pete’s sake, if you need a big target. Anywhere but the head or the heart. I believe you’ve watched too many movies. This was a real-life, life-or-death struggle. It wasn’t a choreographed scene in some movie. There was a struggle, Zimmerman’s brother said there had been a struggle for the weapon, and a fatal shot was fired. The semiautomatic KelTec ejected the spent case but didn’t chamber another round. What prevented the weapond from automatically chambering another round? Too many hands on the pistol? Improper grip on the pistol when it was fired? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/297 "2012-06-08T04:37:06Z")
And yes, I do have very high expectations of gun-toting adults in life-or-death situations. If you can’t keep a cool head when attacked, and/or don’t have tremendous mastery of the weapon, you don’t belong on the streets with a gun. IMO. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/298 "2012-06-08T04:38:18Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I believe you’ve watched too many movies. This was a real-life, life-or-death struggle. It wasn’t a choreographed scene in some movie. There was a struggle, Zimmerman’s brother said there had been a struggle for the weapon, and a fatal shot was fired. > > The semiautomatic KelTec ejected the spent case but didn’t chamber another round. What prevented the weapond from automatically chambering another round? Too many hands on the pistol? Improper grip on the pistol when it was fired? A one-hit kill makes me suspicious that there was a continuing struggle. I think Zimmerman had full control of the gun at that point. Guns fuck up all the time. Don’t even start with your crazy theories. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/299 "2012-06-08T04:40:01Z")
You cowboys are scaring me for the safety of anybody who’s within gunshot range of you in public. I don’t want to be caught in your goddamn crossfire. Do me a favor and stay home with your guns. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/300 "2012-06-08T04:42:39Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > You cowboys are scaring me for the safety of anybody who’s within gunshot range of you in public. > > I don’t want to be caught in your goddamn crossfire. Do me a favor and stay home with your guns. Don’t beat up on people, you will be safe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=16)