# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/341 "2012-06-08T17:39:37Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Amen, he didn’t qualify to be an officer due to his criminal history so he decided to play _Cowboys and Indians_ under the guise being a neighborhood watchman. It’s disparaging enough that the U.S doesn’t require police officers to get a bachelor’s degree and hand out police academy diplomas like candy raindrops, but for them to sanction and lend credibility to a neighborhood watchman who possessed no formal training or classes, is irresponsible. Indeed, it is irrelevant that Zimmerman was a neighborhood watchman because he carried no proof of his “official” position. He could, as someone else mentioned, been a child molester prowling the streets. > > What’s funny, **rat avatar** , is that the posters here will hand-wave Zimmerman’s beating on women (then making fun of it on MySpace), resisting arrest, prescription of uppers (mixed amphetamine salts) and downers (benzodiapenes), attempting to withhold a passport from the court, and lying to the court about his finances. Even Zimmerman’s own lawyer has commented that Zimmerman is “[frustrated](http://globalgrind.com/news/Attorney-Says-Zimmerman-Is-Stressed-Frustrated-Details)” that he has to prove his innocence. What innocent person says that? Be rest assured that _they’re_ the ones looking at Zimmerman with rose-tinted glasses and claim that we (general we) should throw away common sense and only confine our inquiry to what the law says to the letter. It’s certainly a convenient proposition but not a intelligent one. > > - Honesty None of this has anything to do with the case just as Martin’s facebook pages, drug and theft problems have anything to do with the case. I’m not particularly fond of either of them. My view of the case is based on what I know so far and not what I’d like to fantasize happened. I can dream up scenarios all day long. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/342 "2012-06-08T19:06:48Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > It’s disparaging enough that the U.S doesn’t require police officers to get a bachelor’s degree and hand out police academy diplomas like candy raindrops, but for them to sanction and lend credibility to a neighborhood watchman who possessed no formal training or classes, is irresponsible. Indeed, it is irrelevant that Zimmerman was a neighborhood watchman because he carried no proof of his “official” position. You really need to read up on how neighborhood watch programs work in the United States. Members of the neighborhood watch do not typically carry badges, symbols or anything else that identifies them as members. All members of a neighborhood watch are supposed to do is keep an eye on things and report anything that looks suspicious. It’s not as if the police in Florida specifically endorsed Zimmerman for the position. You’re right about one thing; it makes no difference one way or the other that Zimmerman was a member of the neighborhood watch. > [@](#): > > Even Zimmerman’s own lawyer has commented that Zimmerman is “[frustrated](http://globalgrind.com/news/Attorney-Says-Zimmerman-Is-Stressed-Frustrated-Details)” that he has to prove his innocence. What innocent person says that? Seriously? He can’t be innocent because no innocent person would say something like that! That’s a hell of a way to determine guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/343 "2012-06-08T19:12:24Z")
The fact that Zimmerman is “frustrated that he has to prove his innocence” doesn’t tell me that he’s obviously guilty, but it’s a pretty offensive statement. If I shot someone, in any circumstance, the first thing I’d want to do is prove my innocence. I wouldn’t, for example, expect to just walk away like no one had just died. Zimmy’s frustrated. Cry me a river. How frustrated to you think Martin is that he’s dead. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/344 "2012-06-08T19:40:41Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > The fact that Zimmerman is “frustrated that he has to prove his innocence” doesn’t tell me that he’s obviously guilty, but it’s a pretty offensive statement. If I shot someone, in any circumstance, the first thing I’d want to do is prove my innocence. I wouldn’t, for example, expect to just walk away like no one had just died. > > Zimmy’s frustrated. Cry me a river. How frustrated to you think Martin is that he’s dead. How frustrated would you be if your life was ruined regardless of the outcome of the trial? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/345 "2012-06-08T20:01:30Z")
I think it should be a debate rule that if one advocates firing warning shots or “winging” an assailant, then he automatically loses the debate until he takes a self-defense course. Never point a gun at something you don’t want to destroy. Always shoot to “disable the threat.” If you are pointing a gun at someone, you should have a reason to kill them. As a side note, why do so many people believe that someone walking up to you on a public street is a threat which justifies the use of force? I hope I never need to ask you directions, or return your wallet that I saw you drop. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/346 "2012-06-08T20:06:52Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You are assuming facts that you don’t have. > > **It is also quite plausible that while being chased Martin hid under something and gave Zimmerman the slip. It would be understandable that Martin may have perceived Zimmerman’s return to his car as an attempt to find Martin.** > > The original aggressor was Zimmerman, assuming Martin was at fault without all the facts is victim blaming. You are assuming facts that you don’t have. There is an eyewitness that says Martin punched Zimmerman. There are eyewitnesses that say Martin was on top of Zimmerman when the shot was fired. There is medical testimony that proves Zimmerman had a broken nose and had suffered several injuries to the back of his head. What do you have? Feelings? Crystal ball? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/347 "2012-06-08T20:20:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How frustrated would you be if your life was ruined regardless of the outcome of the trial? Not as frustrated as I would be if I were dead for no good reason. Zimmerman killed a kid that a) didn’t deserve to die, and b) would be alive today if Zimmerman didn’t think he was Elliot Fucking Ness. Forgive if I don’t shed a tear over Gun-Totin’ Zimmy’s ruined life. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/348 "2012-06-08T20:25:00Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Not as frustrated as I would be if I were dead for no good reason. > > Zimmerman killed a kid that a) didn’t deserve to die, and b) would be alive today if Zimmerman didn’t think he was Elliot Fucking Ness. Forgive if I don’t shed a tear over Gun-Totin’ Zimmy’s ruined life. You left out the little detail of the beating. As it stands now Zimmerman defended himself. And while nobody has suggested Martin deserved to die he was responsible for his actions, nobody else. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/349 "2012-06-08T21:02:25Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > You really need to read up on how neighborhood watch programs work in the United States. Members of the neighborhood watch do not typically carry badges, symbols or anything else that identifies them as members. All members of a neighborhood watch are supposed to do is keep an eye on things and report anything that looks suspicious. It’s not as if the police in Florida specifically endorsed Zimmerman for the position. You’re right about one thing; it makes no difference one way or the other that Zimmerman was a member of the neighborhood watch. I was under the impression he was in email contact with the Sanford Police Department. He has been heralded as a neighborhood watchman, suggesting that there is something official with that title and that his position carries some legal or moral weight. Clearly, based on what you’re saying, this is not the case. > [@Odesio](#): > > Seriously? He can’t be innocent because no innocent person would say something like that! That’s a hell of a way to determine guilt. You can, but it strikes me as odd. I figure it like this: an innocent person would not complain about being “frustrated” about being charged with a crime but work wholeheartedly to prove his or her own innocence. He’s not interested in that. He’s more interested in squirreling away passports, deceiving the court with inaccuracies, and playing the victim. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/350 "2012-06-08T21:10:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How frustrated would you be if your life was ruined regardless of the outcome of the trial? Heh, I’m sure JonBenet’s parents didn’t express frustration with their lawyer about being accused with a crime they didn’t commit. Yet, even with their reputation tarnished, the parents maintained their innocence as well as trying to find out who the real murderer was. You see, when you’re innocent, you don’t complain bitterly about how you’ve been wronged, you work to clear your name. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/351 "2012-06-08T21:19:52Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Heh, I’m sure JonBenet’s parents didn’t express frustration with their lawyer about being accused with a crime they didn’t commit. Yet, even with their reputation tarnished, the parents maintained their innocence as well as trying to find out who the real murderer was. You see, when you’re innocent, you don’t complain bitterly about how you’ve been wronged, you work to clear your name. > [@](#): > > ’ In an exclusive interview she and her husband gave the newspaper, reporter Kevin Johnson wrote that “…she said that after four years of being under police suspicion, she and her husband, John, are weary,\*\* frustrated\*\* and desperate for some normalcy in their lives.” [From this piece about the Ramseys.](http://voices.yahoo.com/who-killed-jon-benet-ramsey-101621.html) ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/352 "2012-06-08T21:27:02Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Um…no what you are doing is 100% hand waving, you ignore the entire run up and Zimmermans aggression. > > He was a SELF APPOINTED block watch “captain” who had failed to get a job in law enforcement and had a documented history of violence (DV case and his assault on officers) > > So lets get this straight, a wannabe cop, who followed, ignored dispatch chased down, without cause, someone in the dark. > > Do no pretend this was unrelated to those first events. > > Zimmerman was the initial aggressor. The neighborhood watch is manned by volunteers. They would ALL be “self appointed”. Zimmerman has a history and Martin has a history. Martin would not have been there if he hadn’t been suspended from school for 10 days. Zimmerman was not given a lawful order by a police officer. He was talking to an operator, a city employee, who said, “We don’t need you to do that”. Zimmerman had been sanctioned by the State of Florida to carry a weapon almost anywhere in Florida. The U.S. government had no reason to deny Zimmerman the right to buy or own a firearm. The bottomline is that both men had a right to be where they were when the 2nd confrontation occured. Both men had a right to ask the other questions about why the other was there. Neither had a right to punch the other. Unless you have an eyewitness that says otherwise, Martin approached Zimmerman from behind, the two men talked, Martin began punching Zimmerman, Zimmerman used lethal force to defend his life from Martin’s assault. No Skittles or Arizona watermelon drink were hurt during this incident. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/353 "2012-06-08T21:29:29Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Heh, I’m sure JonBenet’s parents didn’t express frustration with their lawyer about being accused with a crime they didn’t commit. Yet, even with their reputation tarnished, the parents maintained their innocence as well as trying to find out who the real murderer was. You see, when you’re innocent, you don’t complain bitterly about how you’ve been wronged, you work to clear your name. Are you implying they weren’t frustrated? [From the Denver Post:](http://www.corpus-delicti.com/douglas_jbr.html) “Over the past seven months, I have grown increasingly frustrated as the investigating authorities have limited their investigation into the murder of my daughter...to me and members of my family,” Ramsey said. I asked you a question. How frustrated would you be if your life was ruined regardless of the outcome of the trial. It doesn’t matter if The President and Jesus show up and bestow their blessings on him. Zimmerman is screwed. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/354 "2012-06-08T21:30:28Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Not as frustrated as I would be if I were dead for no good reason. > > Zimmerman killed a kid that a) didn’t deserve to die, and b) would be alive today if Zimmerman didn’t think he was Elliot Fucking Ness. Forgive if I don’t shed a tear over Gun-Totin’ Zimmy’s ruined life. Martin began punching Zimmerman. Martin might be alive today if he had kept his hands to himself. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/355 "2012-06-08T21:31:07Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You are assuming facts that you don’t have. > > There is an eyewitness that says Martin punched Zimmerman. There are eyewitnesses that say Martin was on top of Zimmerman when the shot was fired. There is medical testimony that proves Zimmerman had a broken nose and had suffered several injuries to the back of his head. > > What do you have? Feelings? Crystal ball? No, you are building straw-men. By the time the punch happened the aggressive actions by Zimmerman had already happened. Zimmerman also had multiple chances to de-escalate the situation, up to and including when Martin asked “why are you following me” and he spouted back “what are you doing here” Note it is EXPRESSLY taught in the neighborhood watch program that : > [@](#): > > REMEMBER: > Community members only serve as the extra “eyes and ears” of law enforcement. They > should report their observations of suspicious activities to law enforcement; however, citizens > should never try to take action on those observations. Trained law enforcement should be > the only ones ever to take action based on observations of suspicious activities. He was a self appointed vigilante who was following and harassing a boy that had every right to be where he was as Zimmerman. If your child was walking home at night and was being chased by a man who was twice his size what should they do? Roll over and give up? It may end up that Martin did take it too far but with the data we have, Zimmerman is the aggressor and 100% at fault for the outcome. A reasonable person in Martin’s place would have a good reason to fear for their life and as the information we have right now, had EVERY right to use force to protect himself. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/356 "2012-06-08T21:40:16Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > You can, but it strikes me as odd. I figure it like this: an innocent person would not complain about being “frustrated” about being charged with a crime but work wholeheartedly to prove his or her own innocence. He’s not interested in that. He’s more interested in squirreling away passports, deceiving the court with inaccuracies, and playing the victim. How did you figure it like that? If I ever killed someone in self defense I’d be worried about a lot of things. I would be worried about being charged with a crime. I’d be worried I might get sued. I wouldn’t “work” with the police without the advice of an attorney. I’d be worried about all this on top of “Oh, my God. I just killed someone.” ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/357 "2012-06-08T21:54:37Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > No, you are building straw-men. > > By the time the punch happened the aggressive actions by Zimmerman had already happened. > > Zimmerman also had multiple chances to de-escalate the situation, up to and including when Martin asked “why are you following me” and he spouted back “what are you doing here” > > …If your child was walking home at night and was being chased by a man who was twice his size what should they do? Roll over and give up? > > It may end up that Martin did take it too far but with the data we have, Zimmerman is the aggressor and 100% at fault for the outcome. > > A reasonable person in Martin’s place would have a good reason to fear for their life and as the information we have right now, had EVERY right to use force to protect himself. The autopsy report stated that Martin was 5 feet 11 inches and 158 pounds. Zimmerman was 5’8" and 185 pounds on the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office Inmate Booking Information dated 4/11/2012. So much for your “man twice his size” strawman. _Zimmerman also had multiple chances to de-escalate the situation, up to and including when Martin asked “why are you following me” and he spouted back “what are you doing here”._ Sooo, you’re saying the two actually talked. Nothing illegal about that. Neither Martin’s or Zimmerman’s “life” was in danger at this point in time. There was no reason to defend yourself if you’re not being attacked. No attack means no self-defense was required. Only after Martin began beating Zimmerman were any laws violated. Only after Martin began slamming Zimmerman’s head on the ground did this become a matter of life or death. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/358 "2012-06-08T22:03:03Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > As a side note, why do so many people believe that someone walking up to you on a public street is a threat which justifies the use of force? I hope I never need to ask you directions, or return your wallet that I saw you drop. Because your scenario has nothing to do with this incident. Martin was stalked by an unknown male in a vehicle who subsequently came after him on foot. Then he was murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/359 "2012-06-08T22:06:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > By the time the punch happened the aggressive actions by Zimmerman had already happened. You keep saying that, but Zimmerman’s actions (while possibly unwise) were neither illegal unless you have further information. Right now, with the information we have, your line of reasoning is not supported. Not to say that more evidence could come to light (or be released by the police) to change the situation. But repeatedly saying that that Zimmerman was the aggressor means nothing if his actions were not illegal. They don’t seem to rise to the legal level needed to justify a violent response. Until the evidence shows that, throwing the first punch remains the first illegal action. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/360 "2012-06-08T22:07:39Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The autopsy report stated that Martin was 5 feet 11 inches and 158 pounds. Zimmerman was 5’8" and 185 pounds on the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office Inmate Booking Information dated 4/11/2012. So much for your “man twice his size” strawman. > > _Zimmerman also had multiple chances to de-escalate the situation, up to and including when Martin asked “why are you following me” and he spouted back “what are you doing here”._ > > Sooo, you’re saying the two actually talked. Nothing illegal about that. > > Neither Martin’s or Zimmerman’s “life” was in danger at this point in time. There was no reason to defend yourself if you’re not being attacked. No attack means no self-defense was required. > > Only after Martin began beating Zimmerman were any laws violated. Only after Martin began slamming Zimmerman’s head on the ground did this become a matter of life or death. Do you honestly not see an issue with following and chasing people down in the dark, you don’t see how a person could be fearful due to the actions of Zimmerman? If someone stalks me in the dark, keeps following when I try to lose them and runs after me, and doesn’t answer the question “why are you following me” with an answer like “dude you dropped your wallet back there” or some other non-confrontational answer, I will assume they are not up to good. If Travon was a woman would she have had the right to be in fear at that point? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=19)