# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/361 "2012-06-08T22:09:16Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > By the time the punch happened the aggressive actions by Zimmerman had already happened. Explain what about Zimmerman’s response to Martin was hostile or aggressive. He asked a question. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Zimmerman also had multiple chances to de-escalate the situation, up to and including when Martin asked “why are you following me” and he spouted back “what are you doing here” Martin had multiple chances to de-escalate the situation. Not only did he forgo the short distance to his house to confront Zimmerman he escalated it beyond words and beat him viciously. Prior to all this both were doing something suspicious to the other. Neither was doing anything illegal. After the conversation the person committing a crime was Martin. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > He was a self appointed vigilante who was following and harassing a boy that had every right to be where he was as Zimmerman. Cite that Zimmerman acted as a vigilante. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > If your child was walking home at night and was being chased by a man who was twice his size what should they do? Roll over and give up? They should seek safety and not confront the person. That’s a truly stupid question to even ask. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > A reasonable person in Martin’s place would have a good reason to fear for their life and as the information we have right now, had EVERY right to use force to protect himself. A reasonable person would try not to confront someone or start a fight. Zimmerman followed Martin because he acted suspicious and then ran. He knew the police were en-route and it was a reasonable course of action to keep him in sight so they could find him and sort it out. I’ve called the police on suspicious activity and I’ve had them called on me. A simple discussion sorts these things out. Martin did not have the right to attack Zimmerman based on the events that we are aware of. Certainly nothing in the conversation warranted an attack. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/362 "2012-06-08T22:20:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Explain what about Zimmerman’s response to Martin was hostile or aggressive. He asked a question. > Martin had multiple chances to de-escalate the situation. Not only did he forgo the short distance to his house to confront Zimmerman he escalated it beyond words and beat him viciously. Prior to all this both were doing something suspicious to the other. Neither was doing anything illegal. After the conversation the person committing a crime was Martin. By trying to evide Zimmerman he WAS trying to de-escalate, that failed multiple times. The fact that you dismiss being chased at night by a stranger at night is something to be concerned about is just absurd. Why do you not afford the same rights of self defense to Martin? is it his look? is age? > [@Magiver](#): > > Cite that Zimmerman acted as a vigilante. I already provided the cite, he broke the most basic rules of the neighborhood watch program and ignored the dispatcher > [@Magiver](#): > > They should seek safety and not confront the person. That’s a truly stupid question to even ask. > A reasonable person would try not to confront someone or start a fight. Zimmerman followed Martin because he acted suspicious and then ran. He knew the police were en-route and it was a reasonable course of action to keep him in sight so they could find him and sort it out. I’ve called the police on suspicious activity and I’ve had them called on me. A simple discussion sorts these things out. > > Martin did not have the right to attack Zimmerman based on the events that we are aware of. Certainly nothing in the conversation warranted an attack. I provided documentation showing he was headed towards home, to say Zimmerman had no role in the confrontation because he failed at his attempt to chase the kid down is just asinine. Following someone walking in the rain at night is how rapes, assaults, and muggings happen. I don’t claim to know if Zimmerman is guilty, the fact you won’t entertain the idea that Martin was acting out of fear and self defense is just odd. For some reason you are saying that Zimmerman had no realistic reason to think that chasing someone down at night may cause them to fight back but Martin was suppose to know the exact best action to take and he is a child. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/363 "2012-06-08T22:46:04Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Do you honestly not see an issue with following and chasing people down in the dark, you don’t see how a person could be fearful due to the actions of Zimmerman? > > If someone stalks me in the dark, keeps following when I try to lose them and runs after me, and doesn’t answer the question “why are you following me” with an answer like “dude you dropped your wallet back there” or some other non-confrontational answer, I will assume they are not up to good. > > If Travon was a woman would she have had the right to be in fear at that point? Martin ran away while Zimmerman was still in his vehicle. Zimmerman lost sight of him. The initial confrontation was over. Martin then initiated a 2nd confrontation with Zimmerman when Martin approached Zimmerman from behind. The two men talked. Martin began punching Zimmerman. If Martin was a 6’ 160 lb woman who had approached someone from behind, asked them what they were doing there, and then broke their nose and beat their head on the ground until blood poured out, I would have serious doubts about her actually being afraid of the guy she was kicking the snot out of. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/364 "2012-06-08T22:53:41Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Martin ran away while Zimmerman was still in his vehicle. Zimmerman lost sight of him. The initial confrontation was over. > > Martin then initiated a 2nd confrontation with Zimmerman when Martin approached Zimmerman from behind. The two men talked. Martin began punching Zimmerman. > > If Martin was a 6’ 160 lb woman who had approached someone from behind, asked them what they were doing there, and then broke their nose and beat their head on the ground until blood poured out, I would have serious doubts about her actually being afraid of the guy she was kicking the snot out of. You do not know that nor do you have a reason to. Zimmerman kept following, that was an escalation, had he just “lost him” he wouldn’t have needed to leave his car. The 911 call makes it quite clear that Zimmerman was actively searching for Martin as he walked, that part is not an unknown. There was no level up, this is not a video game, Martin was under no obligation under the reasonable man doctrine to think that because he had run and Zimmerman had exited his vehicle and gave chase that the confrontation was over. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/365 "2012-06-08T23:10:18Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > There was no level up, this is not a video game, Martin was under no obligation under the reasonable man doctrine to think that because he had run and Zimmerman had exited his vehicle and gave chase that the confrontation was over. If you seriously think that “reasonable man doctrine” allows for: Martin: “Why are you following me?” Zimmerman: “What are you doing here?” Martin: punches Zimmerman in the face, breaking his nose. then there is really nothing to discuss. We’re way too far apart on the basics. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/366 "2012-06-08T23:13:06Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > By trying to evide Zimmerman he WAS trying to de-escalate, that failed multiple times. How did it fail? He was able to keep his distance but in the end chose not to. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The fact that you dismiss being chased at night by a stranger at night is something to be concerned about is just absurd. Why do you not afford the same rights of self defense to Martin? is it his look? is age? I didn’t dismiss this. I’ve repeatedly said that Martin would have found it suspicious. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I already provided the cite, he broke the most basic rules of the neighborhood watch program and ignored the dispatcher. no, you didn’t provide a cite. You’re acting like the watch program has any bearing at all in this case. It is a meaningless set of rules that have no force of law. You might as well cite the Boy Scout oath. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I provided documentation showing he was headed towards home, to say Zimmerman had no role in the confrontation because he failed at his attempt to chase the kid down is just asinine. There is no indication that he intended to catch Martin. If Martin went home that’s what Zimmerman would have seen. Problem solved on both sides. Your documentation shows the short distance involved. It was about 100 yards. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Following someone walking in the rain at night is how rapes, assaults, and muggings happen. pretty good reason to skip on home using your premise of fear. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I don’t claim to know if Zimmerman is guilty, the fact you won’t entertain the idea that Martin was acting out of fear and self defense is just odd. Again, the logical solution to fear in this situation would have been to go home. Self defense is justified when you’re attacked not because you have suspicions. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > For some reason you are saying that Zimmerman had no realistic reason to think that chasing someone down at night may cause them to fight back but Martin was suppose to know the exact best action to take and he is a child. Martin had no cause to stop and fight. Why do you keep asking this? It’s beyond foolish to go out of your way to confront someone you think may harm you. The only reason for Martin to fight Zimmerman is if Zimmerman attacked him. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/367 "2012-06-08T23:13:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If you seriously think that “reasonable man doctrine” allows for: > > Martin: “Why are you following me?” > Zimmerman: “What are you doing here?” > Martin: punches Zimmerman in the face, breaking his nose. > > then there is really nothing to discuss. We’re way too far apart on the basics. I see what you did there…with the whole dropping the following and the chasing bit…What is your monthly bill for straw? Is your position so weak that it can’t survive being framed in the context of the events of that night? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/368 "2012-06-08T23:15:43Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I see what you did there…with the whole dropping the following and the chasing bit…What is your monthly bill for straw? Is your position so weak that it can’t survive being framed in the context of the events of that night? Let me rephrase it then, if you prefer: If you seriously think that “reasonable man doctrine” allows for: … after “following and chasing”… Martin: “Why are you following me?” Zimmerman: “What are you doing here?” Martin: punches Zimmerman in the face, breaking his nose. then there is really nothing to discuss. We’re way too far apart on the basics. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/369 "2012-06-08T23:21:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Let me rephrase it then, if you prefer: > > If you seriously think that “reasonable man doctrine” allows for: > > … after “following and chasing”… > Martin: “Why are you following me?” > Zimmerman: “What are you doing here?” > Martin: punches Zimmerman in the face, breaking his nose. > > then there is really nothing to discuss. We’re way too far apart on the basics. Yes, I hold adult men who instigate conflict to a slightly higher level than teenagers…we will need to agree to disagree if you don’t see that. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/370 "2012-06-09T02:24:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You do not know that nor do you have a reason to. > > Zimmerman kept following, that was an escalation, had he just “lost him” he wouldn’t have needed to leave his car. > > The 911 call makes it quite clear that Zimmerman was actively searching for Martin as he walked, that part is not an unknown. > > There was no level up, this is not a video game, Martin was under no obligation under the reasonable man doctrine to think that because he had run and Zimmerman had exited his vehicle and gave chase that the confrontation was over. The reason would be that this is what has been reported (by Zimmerman’s brother?) to be what Zimmerman told the police. Do you know of someone, who was there, who has contradicted this story? This is the story that the jury will hear - IF - there even is a trial. What evidence will the prosecution produce to contradict Zimmerman’s story? _“Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will produce conclusive evidence that rat avatar doesn’t believe George Zimmerman. That should be enough evidence to convince you of Zimmerman’s guilt because it’s all we have.”_ It was Martin’s punch and continued attack on Zimmerman that created the life threatening situation. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/371 "2012-06-09T02:28:08Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Yes, I hold adult men who instigate conflict to a slightly higher level than teenagers…we will need to agree to disagree if you don’t see that. Ah so you’re switching from a “reasonable man doctrine” to a “teenager doctrine” then? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/372 "2012-06-09T02:28:26Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Yes, I hold adult men who instigate conflict to a slightly higher level than teenagers…we will need to agree to disagree if you don’t see that. Is there any legal relevance to your personal standard? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/373 "2012-06-09T03:01:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There’s no crossfire in a point blank shot. Bullets pass through the human body quite easily at many points. THERE’S the crossfire I’m talking about. And Zimmerman did this in a subdivision. What the fuck is that? Zimmerman was supposedly keeping people safe, yet somehow, he committed the only killing that subdivision has probably ever had. I think, given that fact, that his neighbors (and certainly Trayvon) would have been a lot safer WITHOUT him around. I’m not saying it’s black and white…but all you eager-beaver cowboys with your concealed-carry permits are like little boys playing with toy guns. You have about the same level of emotional maturity, impulse control, and common sense. Given those facts, I don’t want you anywhere near my home with your guns. No thanks, I’ll get along just fine without your ‘protection’, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/374 "2012-06-09T03:19:36Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I’m not saying it’s black and white…but all you eager-beaver cowboys with your concealed-carry permits are like little boys playing with toy guns. You have about the same level of emotional maturity, impulse control, and common sense. > > **Given those facts** , I don’t want you anywhere near my home with your guns. No thanks, I’ll get along just fine without your ‘protection’, thank you. (my bold) What facts? You’ve shown no facts, only loosely-formed opinions. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/375 "2012-06-09T03:22:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is there any legal relevance to your personal standard? Yes (brief due to leading question) ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/376 "2012-06-09T03:38:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah so you’re switching from a “reasonable man doctrine” to a “teenager doctrine” then? I thought you were done with the strawmen ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/377 "2012-06-09T03:45:53Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The reason would be that this is what has been reported (by Zimmerman’s brother?) to be what Zimmerman told the police. Do you know of someone, who was there, who has contradicted this story? This is the story that the jury will hear - IF - there even is a trial. What evidence will the prosecution produce to contradict Zimmerman’s story? > > _“Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will produce conclusive evidence that rat avatar doesn’t believe George Zimmerman. That should be enough evidence to convince you of Zimmerman’s guilt because it’s all we have.”_ > > It was Martin’s punch and continued attack on Zimmerman that created the life threatening situation. the 911 tape is real evidence and far better than a suspects account. [ > [@](#): > > 911 dispatcher: > > Are you following him? [2:24] > > Zimmerman: > > Yeah. [2:25] > > 911 dispatcher: > > OK. > > We don’t need you to do that. [2:26] ]([Zimmerman 911 Call Transcript – Trayvon Martin | Phoebe's Detention Room](http://phoebe53.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/zimmerman-911-call-transcript-trayvon-martin/)) Your arguments are based more on rumor than my stance. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying the man is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I think it is quite reasonable that Martin may have felt he was in imminent jeopardy. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/378 "2012-06-09T03:48:21Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > (my bold) > > What facts? You’ve shown no facts, only loosely-formed opinions. :dubious: Surely you don’t think trying to convince me is worth your time. How is it not clear that I think Zimmerman, and other man-boys playing with guns, are some of the most dangerous people in our society? How is it not clear that you cannot change that opinion? Why waste your time? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/379 "2012-06-09T03:53:02Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > the 911 tape is real evidence and far better than a suspects account. The crux of the issue is that we don’t agree on how to interpret the 911 call. Some people see it as evidence that Zimmerman went gunning for Martin. We have at least one poster who believes that Zimmerman was “hyped” for the kill based on his tone of voice Zimmerman had on the tape. I don’t see the tape as evidence that Zimmerman was gunning for Martin. I think he should have followed the advice of the 911 operator, and, let’s be clear, it was advice not an order, but this is not evidence that Zimmerman was doing anything unlawful. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/380 "2012-06-09T03:54:03Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Unless you have an eyewitness that says otherwise, Martin approached Zimmerman from behind, the two men talked, Martin began punching Zimmerman, Zimmerman used lethal force to defend his life from Martin’s assault. I’m unsure as to why you’re presenting as established fact that Martin approached Zimmerman from behind and started the fight; neither of those facts is known to you aside from the rumour that Zimmerman claims them to be the case. There’s no other eyewitness of which you are aware to corroborate this story. It is possible that these things happened, but we don’t KNOW they happened. If you’re assuming Zimmerman’s word as gospel truth, you need to turn your skepticism meter up; he has, shall we say, an incentive to lie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=20)