# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/381 "2012-06-09T03:59:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m unsure as to why you’re presenting as established fact that Martin approached Zimmerman from behind and started the fight; neither of those facts is known to you aside from the rumour that Zimmerman claims them to be the case. There’s no other eyewitness of which you are aware to corroborate this story. > > It is possible that these things happened, but we don’t KNOW they happened. If you’re assuming Zimmerman’s word as gospel truth, you need to turn your skepticism meter up; he has, shall we say, an incentive to lie. They’re not listening. When it comes to Zimmerman, they don’t HAVE a skepticism meter. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/382 "2012-06-09T04:02:17Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The crux of the issue is that we don’t agree on how to interpret the 911 call. Some people see it as evidence that Zimmerman went gunning for Martin. We have at least one poster who believes that Zimmerman was “hyped” for the kill based on his tone of voice Zimmerman had on the tape. I don’t see the tape as evidence that Zimmerman was gunning for Martin. I think he should have followed the advice of the 911 operator, and, let’s be clear, it was advice not an order, but this is not evidence that Zimmerman was doing anything unlawful. Actually in the case of self defense his actions don’t need to be unlawful, are you confusing the requirements for stand your ground? What matters is if a “reasonable and prudent” person would think that they were immediate danger. (there are other items but this is the point for me quoting the tapes) The whole “stand your ground” thing makes for good TV and sells papers but neither M nor Z are able to use it in this case even if M had survived. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/383 "2012-06-09T04:03:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Yes > > (brief due to leading question) And what is the relevance of your personal standard? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/384 "2012-06-09T04:07:52Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > What matters is if a “reasonable and prudent” person would think that they were immediate danger. (there are other items but this is the point for me quoting the tapes). Not exactly, no. In Florida, the elements of the crime cannot be found by inference. There must be evidence for the jury to specifically rely upon. As a matter of law, merely following someone cannot be a threat of imminent violence. This is not a question of fact. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/385 "2012-06-09T04:09:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And what is the relevance of your personal standard? Why don’t you say what you think is wrong with it. Are you trying to say Z was not the aggressor by some standard? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/386 "2012-06-09T04:11:14Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m unsure as to why you’re presenting as established fact that Martin approached Zimmerman from behind and started the fight; neither of those facts is known to you aside from the rumour that Zimmerman claims them to be the case. There’s no other eyewitness of which you are aware to corroborate this story. > > It is possible that these things happened, but we don’t KNOW they happened. If you’re assuming Zimmerman’s word as gospel truth, you need to turn your skepticism meter up; he has, shall we say, an incentive to lie. At trial, the government has the burden to prove that they did not happen, and prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. You’re right that we don’t know, but it’s not his burden to carry. He doesn’t have to prove it happened the way he said – the state has to prove it didn’t. And they can’t meet that burden by saying, “Well, he has a motive to lie.” ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/387 "2012-06-09T04:12:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Do you think anyone has a valid SYG claim here? I don’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/388 "2012-06-09T04:14:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At trial, the government has the burden to prove that they did not happen, and prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. > > You’re right that we don’t know, but it’s not his burden to carry. He doesn’t have to prove it happened the way he said – the state has to prove it didn’t. > > And they can’t meet that burden by saying, “Well, he has a motive to lie.” Well see here is the problem, I am talking what if’s, with what we know of what happened, did M have a right to act with force in self defense, if you are talking about after his death obviously there is no standing. I was talking as if M was not killed. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/389 "2012-06-09T04:14:56Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Actually in the case of self defense his actions don’t need to be unlawful, are you confusing the requirements for stand your ground? I am not confusing them. I simply pointing out that many people who listened to the 911 tape see it as evidence that Zimmerman was doing something unlawful. > [@](#): > > What matters is if a “reasonable and prudent” person would think that they were immediate danger. (there are other items but this is the point for me quoting the tapes) I get it. I can even see why Martin might have felt he was in immediate danger. That isn’t very good evidence that Zimmerman was the aggressor or did anything illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/390 "2012-06-09T04:17:28Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Why don’t you say what you think is wrong with it. > > Are you trying to say Z was not the aggressor by some standard? Sure. There is no particular law that imposes some higher level of responsibility upon an adult than upon a teenager when the situation is self-defense. So when you say, “Yes, I hold adult men who instigate conflict to a slightly higher level than teenagers,” that’s not a standard applicable to a criminal case of second degree murder in Florida. Was Zimmerman the aggressor? I don’t know. By his version of events, he was not the aggressor for the purposes of self-defense. Give me a specific set of events, though, and I’ll tell you if Zimmerman was the aggressor for that scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/391 "2012-06-09T04:22:41Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Well see here is the problem, I am talking what if’s, with what we know of what happened, did M have a right to act with force in self defense, if you are talking about after his death obviously there is no standing. > > I was talking as if M was not killed. I see. Well, the answer is the same. if we accept that Zimmerman followed Martin, then approached him with no weapon drawn and asked him, “What are you doing here?” – and nothing else – then on those facts Martin cannot strike Zimmerman. If we want to add that Zimmerman uttered some threat, or tried to hold Martin, or even ordered him to not move… any of those changes would change the analysis. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/392 "2012-06-09T04:25:33Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I am not confusing them. I simply pointing out that many people who listened to the 911 tape see it as evidence that Zimmerman was doing something unlawful. > > I get it. I can even see why Martin might have felt he was in immediate danger. That isn’t very good evidence that Zimmerman did anything wrong though. To use self defense as a defense there is no need to show Z did anything wrong. Although I think only a fool would think you could chase people down in the dark and not get a response. I personally think that you could claim it rose to the level of negligence but we will see. The merit of the self defense claim in most states is if a “reasonable and prudent” person would have believed himself to be in immediate danger. Zimmerman being larger would meet the typical test for ability and having chased him down also had opportunity. From a very high overview those three items would have most likely prevented M being handed a criminal conviction. The only possible way SYG would have applied is if Z would have had an way to escape, if his claims were true and he was pined to the ground there was no way he could retreat thus no reason to apply the SYG law. The car/home part plays no role in this case either as both were legally in public places. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/393 "2012-06-09T04:30:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I see. > > Well, the answer is the same. if we accept that Zimmerman followed Martin, then approached him with no weapon drawn and asked him, “What are you doing here?” – and nothing else – then on those facts Martin cannot strike Zimmerman. > > If we want to add that Zimmerman uttered some threat, or tried to hold Martin, or even ordered him to not move… any of those changes would change the analysis. No, if Z came in hot, like he has a documented past of doing it could easily rise to the point where it could be self defense. Remember he had just stalked him in a car, got out and ran. M would need to convince the jury, something that would not be hard if you had a few jurors who had experience being mugged or fear noises in the dark. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/394 "2012-06-09T04:37:28Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The only possible way SYG would have applied is if Z would have had an way to escape, if his claims were true and he was pined to the ground there was no way he could retreat thus no reason to apply the SYG law. I haven’t made any arguments based on SYG. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/395 "2012-06-09T04:40:13Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > No, if Z came in hot, like he has a documented past of doing it could easily rise to the point where it could be self defense. Okay, “if.” You’re the prosecutor; Prove that Zimmerman came in hot beyond any reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/396 "2012-06-09T04:42:41Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Okay, “if.” You’re the prosecutor; Prove that Zimmerman came in hot beyond any reasonable doubt. strawman, I am defending M’s right to self defense > [@](#): > > Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying the man is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/397 "2012-06-09T04:49:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > strawman, I am defending M’s right to self defense Well, then. Carry on, soldier. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/398 "2012-06-09T05:14:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. There is no particular law that imposes some higher level of responsibility upon an adult than upon a teenager when the situation is self-defense. So when you say, “Yes, I hold adult men who instigate conflict to a slightly higher level than teenagers,” that’s not a standard applicable to a criminal case of second degree murder in Florida. > > Was Zimmerman the aggressor? I don’t know. By his version of events, he was not the aggressor for the purposes of self-defense. > > Give me a specific set of events, though, and I’ll tell you if Zimmerman was the aggressor for that scenario. FYI both in this case and before I was speaking of culpability, not that Florida murder statues are MPC based but his actions he did, as an adult who should know better disqualify himself for the lesser homicide charges, although FL degrees just seem odd to me, having spent most my life where the water flows into the Pacific. E.G. as I stated in another reply, I think he is at least guilty of negligence and I would call it reckless. So it does matter on the degree of the charge that you can get a Jury agree with. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/399 "2012-06-09T05:22:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At trial, the government has the burden to prove that they did not happen, and prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. > > You’re right that we don’t know, but it’s not his burden to carry. He doesn’t have to prove it happened the way he said – the state has to prove it didn’t. That’s true but irrelevant to my point, which is merely that people are stating as proven fact things that they don’t actually know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/400 "2012-06-09T05:25:57Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Bullets pass through the human body quite easily at many points. THERE’S the crossfire I’m talking about. > > And Zimmerman did this in a subdivision. What the fuck is that? self defense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=21)