# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/401 "2012-06-09T14:03:46Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Bullets pass through the human body quite easily at many points. THERE’S the crossfire I’m talking about. > > And Zimmerman did this in a subdivision. What the :o is that? That’s where Martin was attempting to kill Zimmerman. Crimes aren’t limited to the middle of the Mojave. This bullet didn’t pass thru Martin’s body and it ended Martin’s attack. Zimmerman, as a neighborhood watch volunteer, had called the police 46 times or about once a week. The Retreat at Twin Lakes community was calling the police approx once a day. There was definately a crime problem in that neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/402 "2012-06-09T14:13:27Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > FYI both in this case and before I was speaking of culpability, not that Florida murder statues are MPC based but his actions he did, as an adult who should know better disqualify himself for the lesser homicide charges, although FL degrees just seem odd to me, having spent most my life where the water flows into the Pacific. > > E.G. as I stated in another reply, I think he is at least guilty of negligence and I would call it reckless. > > So it does matter on the degree of the charge that you can get a Jury agree with. Zimmerman has only been charged with 2nd degree homicide. That is the case the SA will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Not negligence, not reckless homicide. If you were on the jury, would you vote to convict Zimmerman of 2nd degree homicide? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/403 "2012-06-09T14:46:46Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Well see here is the problem, I am talking what if’s, with what we know of what happened, did M have a right to act with force in self defense, if you are talking about after his death obviously there is no standing. > > I was talking as if M was not killed. If you want to consider “what ifs”, what if Martin had stayed at his mother’s house during his 10 day suspension? What if Martin hadn’t been sent to stay with his father? What if Martin had run home, or somewhere else, when he had started to? What if Martin hadn’t gone back to confront Zimmerman? What if Martin hadn’t strated punching Zimmerman? Since this case will be decided by a court, what evidence will be presented to the court? What evidence exists that disproves Zimmerman’s story? Florida law allows Zimmerman to carry a weapon. That’s what the Florida taxpaying voters wanted. They elected representatives that passed laws that allowed to Floridians to defend themselves, including the use of deadly force. Carrying a weapon does not automatically make you guilty of 2nd degree homicide in Florida. What Florida law did Zimmerman or Martin violate up to the time Martin and Zimmerman spoke to each other? None, zero, zip, nada. There was no “life threatening” situation up to that point. There was certainly reason for both men to be “concerned” about the unfolding situation but nothing the court would consider “life threatening”. Until Martin began punching Zimmerman, knocking him down and continuing to attack him as he lay on the ground. At that point, it’s reasonable to assume that a man with a broken nose who was pinned to the ground and calling out to his neighbors for help could reasonably assume his life was in danger. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/404 "2012-06-09T14:52:46Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > the 911 tape is real evidence and far better than a suspects account. > > Your arguments are based more on rumor than my stance. > > Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying the man is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. > > I think it is quite reasonable that Martin may have felt he was in imminent jeopardy. “OK. We don’t need you to do that.” ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/405 "2012-06-09T15:03:37Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > the 911 tape is real evidence and far better than a suspects account. > > Your arguments are based more on rumor than my stance. > > Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying the man is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. > > I think it is quite reasonable that Martin may have felt he was in imminent jeopardy. “_OK. We don’t need you to do that_.” What does that statement actually mean? It didn’t come from a police officer but from a city employee. Does that mean that Zimmerman was ordered to stay in the car or ordered to return to his car? Does it suggest that the city employee would prefer that Zimmerman not continue but the choice was Zimmermans. Or ??? Your opinion of what that means may be different from what I or Zimmerman or anyone else thinks it means. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/406 "2012-06-09T15:31:53Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > … What evidence exists that disproves Zimmerman’s story? > … The amazing amount of gun shot residue found on Zimmerman’s clothing? ([Page 124 of 183.](http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf)) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/407 "2012-06-09T15:46:54Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > The amazing amount of gun shot residue found on Zimmerman’s clothing? ([Page 124 of 183.](http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf)) > > CMC fnord! ??? Did Zimmerman claim he didn’t shoot Martin? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/408 "2012-06-09T15:56:25Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > “_OK. We don’t need you to do that_.” What does that statement actually mean? It didn’t come from a police officer but from a city employee. Does that mean that Zimmerman was ordered to stay in the car or ordered to return to his car? Does it suggest that the city employee would prefer that Zimmerman not continue but the choice was Zimmermans. Or ??? > > Your opinion of what that means may be different from what I or Zimmerman or anyone else thinks it means. The word “need” takes if from a request by a city employee to a suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/409 "2012-06-09T16:28:11Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Zimmerman has only been charged with 2nd degree homicide. That is the case the SA will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Not negligence, not reckless homicide. > > If you were on the jury, would you vote to convict Zimmerman of 2nd degree homicide? I do not have enough information to convict the guy but he is charged with 2nd degree MURDER. which is a type of homicide. If I were on the a Grand Jury, and admitting I don’t know Florida case law. I would have probably have pushed to charge him with manslaughter. But in case you don’t know, a Grand Jury does not CONVICT a person of a crime, nor prove they committed one. > [@](#): > > (1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/410 "2012-06-09T16:38:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [From this piece about the Ramseys.](http://voices.yahoo.com/who-killed-jon-benet-ramsey-101621.html) Read your quote, Bricker. AFTER FOUR YEARS of being under suspicion, the Ramseys were frustrated. Of course, I would expect them to be frustrated after four years but not after 20 days. Thanks - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/411 "2012-06-09T17:05:42Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Read your quote, Bricker. AFTER FOUR YEARS of being under suspicion, the Ramseys were frustrated. Of course, I would expect them to be frustrated after four years but not after 20 days. > > Thanks > > - Honesty I cited a much shorter time span earlier. Assuming Zimmerman walks (best possible outcome) do you think this all goes away? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/412 "2012-06-09T17:06:55Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I do not have enough information to convict the guy but he is charged with 2nd degree **MURDER. which is a type of homicide**. > > If I were on the a Grand Jury, and admitting I don’t know Florida case law. I would have probably have pushed to charge him with manslaughter. > > But in case you don’t know, a Grand Jury does not CONVICT a person of a crime, nor prove they committed one. Tomato/tomatoe. Let me rephrase the question - If you were on the petit jury, would you vote to convict Zimmerman of 2nd degree murder, as it is described by the Florida Statutes that were in place at the time of Martin’s death? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/413 "2012-06-09T17:07:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The word “need” takes if from a request by a city employee to a suggestion. Dude, is that a friggin’ joke or are you really confusing “to need” with “to want”? I don’t mean to be funny but is English your native language? On what planet is “_OK, we don’t need you to do that_” can be categorized as a suggestion? I really wish I lived in your world: “Can I have sex with you?” “No, I don’t need you to do that.” “Thank you for your suggestion, but I’m going to fuck you anyway. Open wide, bitte.” In any case, I’m done with \*this \*Trayvon Martin thread. I’m not even sure why I care anymore. Zimmerman is dead, either way. He’ll either be killed in jail like Dahmer or he’ll be released and get killed on the street. I can damn-near lay my life on that. His life is ruined - as it should be when you carelessly take the life of another human being. I am \*thoroughly \*enjoying my schadenfraude. This is truly the hate that hate produced. > [@Magiver](#): > > I cited a much shorter time span earlier. Assuming Zimmerman walks (best possible outcome) do you think this all goes away? Unless the much shorter time span was 30 days, which is comparable to Zimmerman, it’s irrelavent. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/414 "2012-06-09T17:11:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The word “need” takes if from a request by a city employee to a suggestion. The point is, as a human, as tought by block watch and as told by the dispatcher there is every reason to believe Zimmerman should know it is, most people, view it as an act of aggression to chase someone down in the dark for no reason. It is absolutely absurd to pretend his actions were known good actions, if they are you should probably re-evaluate them for your own safety sake. Stalking and chasing down strangers at night is a pretty good way to get a poke in the nose. You keep pretending like there is some law Z needed to be breaking but that is just not true. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/415 "2012-06-09T17:11:07Z")
Deleted ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/416 "2012-06-09T17:31:51Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Dude, is that a friggin’ joke or are you really confusing “to need” with “to want”? I don’t mean to be funny but is English your native language? On what planet is “_OK, we don’t need you to do that_” can be categorized as a suggestion? I really wish I lived in your world: > > “Can I have sex with you?” > > “No, I don’t need you to do that.” > > “Thank you for your suggestion, but I’m going to :o you anyway. Open wide, bitte.” > > In any case, I’m done with \*this \*Trayvon Martin thread. I’m not even sure why I care anymore. Zimmerman is dead, either way. He’ll either be killed in jail like Dahmer or he’ll be released and get killed on the street. I can damn-near lay my life on that. His life is ruined - as it should be when you carelessly take the life of another human being. I am \*thoroughly \*enjoying my schadenfraude. This is truly the hate that hate produced. > > Unless the much shorter time span was 30 days, which is comparable to Zimmerman, it’s irrelavent. > > - Honesty Are you “frustrated” after only a few days? How is the statement, "OK. “We don’t need you to do that”, issued by a non-police officer, to be considered a lawful order to do anything? How would you present that statement to a jury? The defense could tell the jury that it meant, “We don’t need you to do that but because I’m not a police officer, you do what you think is best”. It’s certainly not as obvious as, “This is Sgt Smith of the Sanford Police Dept. and I’m ordering you to stay in your car”, is it? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/417 "2012-06-09T17:45:08Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The point is, as a human, as tought by block watch and as told by the dispatcher there is every reason to believe Zimmerman should know it is, most people, view it as an act of aggression to chase someone down in the dark for no reason. > > It is absolutely absurd to pretend his actions were known good actions, if they are you should probably re-evaluate them for your own safety sake. > > Stalking and chasing down strangers at night is a pretty good way to get a poke in the nose. > > You keep pretending like there is some law Z needed to be breaking but that is just not true. I’m not aware that the Retreat at Twin Oaks neighborhood watch association was associated with any other neighborhood watch group? The local police knew the group existed and had provided guidelines for the groups operation. Guidelines. For instance, the PD preferred that neighborhood watch VOLUNTEERS did not carry firearms. The State of Florida permits some Florida residence to carry firearms. The laws of the State of Florida superceeds the suggestions of local PD. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/418 "2012-06-09T17:52:13Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Stalking and chasing down strangers at night is a pretty good way to get a poke in the nose. > > You keep pretending like there is some law Z needed to be breaking but that is just not true. Trying to beat people to death is a good way to get shot. Two people meeting on the street and exchanging a few words is not illegal or even threatening. Continually beating someone while they are calling out to their neighbors for help is also a good way to get shot. Either by your victim or by someone coming to your victims aid. Martin was violating FLA law by beating Zimmerman. Zimmerman was defending his own life. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/419 "2012-06-09T17:54:57Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I’m not aware that the Retreat at Twin Oaks neighborhood watch association was associated with any other neighborhood watch group? The local police knew the group existed and had provided guidelines for the groups operation. Guidelines. For instance, the PD preferred that neighborhood watch VOLUNTEERS did not carry firearms. The State of Florida permits some Florida residence to carry firearms. The laws of the State of Florida superceeds the suggestions of local PD. And, are you arguing that this means a reasonable person wouldn’t understand that stalking and chasing down someone in the dark may make them feel a bit threatened? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/420 "2012-06-09T17:56:10Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Trying to beat people to death is a good way to get shot. > > Two people meeting on the street and exchanging a few words is not illegal or even threatening. Continually beating someone while they are calling out to their neighbors for help is also a good way to get shot. Either by your victim or by someone coming to your victims aid. > > Martin was violating FLA law by beating Zimmerman. > > Zimmerman was defending his own life. We will see, this has gotten circular, i’m going to drop out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=22)