# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/441 "2012-06-09T23:22:23Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Trying to beat people to death is a good way to get shot. > > Two people meeting on the street and exchanging a few words is not illegal or even threatening. Continually beating someone while they are calling out to their neighbors for help is also a good way to get shot. Either by your victim or by someone coming to your victims aid. > > Martin was violating FLA law by beating Zimmerman. > > Zimmerman was defending his own life. You’ve mentioned Martin trying to kill Zimmerman a couple of times. I haven’t seen anything to indicate that’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/442 "2012-06-09T23:38:15Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > If a cite from the Mayo Clinic isn’t enough to convince you that a broken nose doesn’t necessarily have to be a bloody nose then nothing is going to convince you. I am more interested in why his head appears to have no blood at all when he’s getting out of the squad car compared to other photos. I somehow missed this. And there are NO pictures of the two black eyes, though I understand black eyes might not show up for two or three days. I have posted the earliest evidence of Zimmerman’s condition, video taken within hours of the confrontation. Zimmerman seems unharmed. And none of this really matters as I think if Martin had really gone for the beatdown he would have been justified, Hell, even the 911 dispatcher recommended breaking contact. Zimmerman had no cause to confront Martin the way he did. The dispatcher said so. And suppose Martin attacked? And you have not presented evidence he did, wouldn’t an attack on a creepy dude (and the 911 calls show Zimmerman is a bit creepy) be justified under the SYG law? ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/443 "2012-06-09T23:47:35Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I enjoy your crazy theory that Zimmerman “had full control of the gun at that point”. Have you ever fired a pistol? Have you ever fired a pistol while someone was punching you in the face? Have you ever fired a pistol while someone was banging your head on a concrete surface? How accurate were you? > > Martin punched Zimmerman and knocked him to the ground. Martin continued to attack Zimmerman while Zimmerman lay on the ground calling to his neighbors for help. Martin didn’t have to start the fight and Martin could have stopped attacking Zimmerman at anytime. Oh wait, Where was the bit about being knocked to the ground and being punched in the face? Dude, I’ve posed six times here the earliest video of Zimmerman at the police station. No blood, no broken nose, no black eyes. What we have here is a stalk and kill. But back to the whole point of this thread; If Martin had gone for the beatdown, would he have been justified. I answer in the affirmative. A car stalker against a pedestrian is always a presumed enemy ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/444 "2012-06-09T23:51:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So despite the fact that there is currently no evidence that would allow a jury to find Zimmerman guilty, I am convinced that she has some. Otherwise, I don’t believe she would have charged him. I agree. We have no reason to think she’d suddenly destroy her own credibility by charging a guy with murder with little to no evidence. If she was just caving into pressure, she could have taken the easy way out and foisted the decision on a grand jury, or better yet, just charged him with manslaughter. But she didn’t do that. What evidence do we have that this woman is incompetent? And it ain’t like Zimmerman has been making himself look trustworthy recently, which makes it all the more bizarre that people keep giving weight to his story. Since he and honesty do not seem to be on good terms with each other, and neither is intelligence, I cant imagine Corey had to look very hard for evidence against him. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/445 "2012-06-10T00:01:54Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Exactly. In the absence of such knowledge how can Zimmerman be convicted of 2nd degree murder? Plenty of people get convicted of murder even though there are no witnesses. We dont need to have perfect knowledge of an event to determine someone is guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/446 "2012-06-10T00:13:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I prefer people don’t beat the crap out of me. The difference is that we know Martin was beating Zimmerman yet there is no evidence that Zimmerman acted as a vigilante. He shot him well after the beating began based on the the phone call and the space of time before the call was made. > > You’re making a baseless claim at this point. Show me the blood. I have posted the earliest video of Zimmerman. no blood. This was a hyped dude who wanted to be an hero. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/447 "2012-06-10T00:28:40Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Please don’t liken self-defense to rape. Maybe I can clarify this. Suppose a VICTIM of a rapist attacked her rapist and the rapist killed her and claimed self defense or SYG or whatever. Thats akin to what happened here. And for all Martin knew. Zimmerman might have been a rapist. Yep, it happens to dudes too. There are people saying he should have not worn a hoodie, there are people saying it was OK because Martin was black. This is quite similar to the blame game leveled against rape victims. And don’t forget this. No one here has presented evidence that Zimmerman was beaten. And the whole point of the original thread was that if Martin had gone for the beatdown, would he be justified? I say yes. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/448 "2012-06-10T00:30:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > In the absence of such knowledge, how can people defend Zimmerman so vehemently? He killed a black guy and he did it in the name of vigilantism; both of which are popular. And the gun-nut brigade supports him because they are emotionally & politically invested in a Hollywood Wild West view of the world where guns solve all problems and the guy standing at the end of the gunfight is always the White Hat. If they admit that there’s no particular connection between private citizens using guns and justice, then they are admitting that their fantasies about gun ownership being about Protecting Freedom and fighting off the criminal hordes are just that; fantasies. They can’t afford to admit that some guy who’s acting out their _Death Wish_ fantasies was the bad guy and killed an innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/449 "2012-06-10T00:34:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Both of them, obviously. Martin could have gone home faster; Zimmerman could have simply not pursued him in the first place. I don’t know what relevance this comment has. The difference is that there was nothing wrong with keeping Martin in sight. There was something wrong with striking Zimmerman. > [@RickJay](#): > > No, you simply don’t. You weren’t there and don’t know how the conversation began, and don’t know why it ended or what ended it. You’re assuming a large number of things for which you do not have the evidence. I’m basing it on the fact that Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend. This was her account. There is enough information out in public domain to make an initial assessment of the situation. This discussion was not based on Zimmerman’s word alone. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/450 "2012-06-10T00:47:50Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Martin began punching Zimmerman. Martin might be alive today if he had kept his hands to himself. Fuck nawh, You got now evidence Zimmerman was harmed in any way. I’ve posted video six times that shows Zimmerman was hale and healthy after the supposed attack. I have posted links to the 911 calls that show Zimmerman was hyped for the kill shot. I would say that both would be alive today if Martin had gone on the attack at the first opportunity. Beat that hyped killer so hard he can’t draw his gun and walk away. Stomp that paranoid SOB a few times and break his ribs just to be sure and teach him a lesson. Maybe puncture a lung to keep him in the hospital for a week. Losers in vehicles who stalk pedestrians need to learn this shit. I fuckin’ cheer every time a pedestrian fucks up a stalker driver. The streets our ours, not yours. Someday the oil will run out and then your kids will join us. Martin attacked Zimmerman? Show me the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/451 "2012-06-10T00:56:42Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Do you honestly not see an issue with following and chasing people down in the dark, you don’t see how a person could be fearful due to the actions of Zimmerman? > > If someone stalks me in the dark, keeps following when I try to lose them and runs after me, and doesn’t answer the question “why are you following me” with an answer like “dude you dropped your wallet back there” or some other non-confrontational answer, I will assume they are not up to good. > > If Travon was a woman would she have had the right to be in fear at that point? Finally,someone’s talking some sense. Someone following is always an aggressor. And please chime in female dopers: If you were on foot and being followed by a vehicle, how would you feel? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/452 "2012-06-10T00:57:53Z")
> [@Rampant\_Coypu](#): > > Fuck nawh, You got now evidence Zimmerman was harmed in any way. I’ve posted video six times that shows Zimmerman was hale and healthy after the supposed attack. I have posted links to the 911 calls that show Zimmerman was hyped for the kill shot. you’ve posted nothing but opinion. The police report and photos at the scene verify his injuries. There is nothing on the 911 call that remotely suggests he was hyped up. His voice was calm the entire time. > [@Rampant\_Coypu](#): > > I fuckin’ cheer every time a pedestrian fucks up a stalker driver. The streets our ours, not yours. Someday the oil will run out and then your kids will join us. promoting violence does not enhance your debate point. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/453 "2012-06-10T01:25:17Z")
> [@Rampant\_Coypu](#): > > Finally,someone’s talking some sense. Someone following is always an aggressor. > > And please chime in female dopers: If you were on foot and being followed by a vehicle, how would you feel? the most he could have followed Martin was 300 feet. that’s not ever a city block. And he wasn’t followed by a vehicle, he was viewed from a vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/454 "2012-06-10T01:33:06Z")
> [@Rampant\_Coypu](#): > > I somehow missed this. And there are NO pictures of the two black eyes, though I understand black eyes might not show up for two or three days. Fair enough. It’s easy to miss individual posts when threads get this long. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/455 "2012-06-10T01:58:41Z")
> [@Rampant\_Coypu](#): > > I have posted the earliest evidence of Zimmerman’s condition, video taken within hours of the confrontation. Zimmerman seems unharmed. There are pictures in the evidence of Zimmerman’s bloody head that the police took within minutes of the confrontation. Did you miss those? > [@](#): > > And none of this really matters as I think if Martin had really gone for the beatdown he would have been justified What you think doesn’t matter. If you “beat down” someone that asked you a question after following you, that’s a crime. > [@](#): > > And suppose Martin attacked? And you have not presented evidence he did, wouldn’t an attack on a creepy dude (and the 911 calls show Zimmerman is a bit creepy) be justified under the SYG law? No. No law anywhere in the United States justifies attacking “creepy dudes”. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/456 "2012-06-10T02:51:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Again, you _think_ this to be the case. You do not know it to be the case, unless in fact you were there and saw the entire event. (In which case you should probably call the Florida authorities and tell them about it.) > > Unless you are privy to evidence that has not been released to the public, you simply do not know for sure what happened or who intitiated the physical altercation. > No, sir, Florida law does not say that. It says that you must be in a situation where a reasonable person would believe themselves to be in danger of death **or grievous bodily harm** , which is a different, and broader, concept. Zimmerman’s brother related some of Zimmerman’s story. On the other hand, you have no one who tells a different story. You can only guess or deny. Assume for the moment that there are two men traveling in the same direction, one following the other. The leading man stops, turns around, and approaches the man who is following him. The two men have a conversation that consistes of both men asking,“What are you doing here” which is overheard via telephone by the leading man’s girlfriend. Is either man’s life actually in danger? Has anything illegal happened up to this point? If both men choose to walk away, has anything illegal happened? Is anyone’s life in danger? No and no. If you know of someone or some piece of evidence that proves what Zimmerman said is false, you should probably call the Florida authorities and tell them about it. If Martin had kept his hands to himself, instead of punching Zimmerman, Martin might still be alive today. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/457 "2012-06-10T03:03:21Z")
For all of you who keep saying that Zimmerman was “stalking” Martin, do you mean that Zimmerman was criminally stalking Martin, as in violating Florida’s stalking statute? Or do you just mean some loose definition that you have but don’t tell us what is? Here’s the Florida Law. I omitted certain kinds of stalking that aren’t relevant here, such as stalking someone with a restraining order, or stalking someone under 16. I also omitted the punishments, in the interest of a shorter post. [QUOTE=Fl Legislature] 784.048 Stalking; definitions; penalties.—(1) As used in this section, the term: (a) “Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose. (b) “Course of conduct” means a pattern of conduct composed of a series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of “course of conduct.” Such constitutionally protected activity includes picketing or other organized protests. (c) “Credible threat” means a threat made with the intent to cause the person who is the target of the threat to reasonably fear for his or her safety. The threat must be against the life of, or a threat to cause bodily injury to, a person. (d) “Cyberstalk” means to engage in a course of conduct to communicate, or to cause to be communicated, words, images, or language by or through the use of electronic mail or electronic communication, directed at a specific person, causing substantial emotional distress to that person and serving no legitimate purpose. (2) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. (3) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person, and makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury of the person, or the person’s child, sibling, spouse, parent, or dependent, commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. [/QUOTE] You will note that in order to stalk, it has to be repeated. Zimmerman was only following Martin on this one occasion, and not repeated times. You will notice that constitutionally protected activity is protected as non-stalking, too, and guarding your property and your neighbors is protected. In this case you guys are using stalking language because it is inflammatory and makes Zimmarman look worse than you have any right to claim he was. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/458 "2012-06-10T03:08:17Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > You’ve mentioned Martin trying to kill Zimmerman a couple of times. I haven’t seen anything to indicate that’s true. There is Zimmerman’s statement and there are the police photos and EMT statements of Zimmerman’s bloody injuries plus a statement from Zimmerman’s doctor. There are eyewitnesses who say Martin was pinning Zimmerman to the ground and punching him. I can’t explain why you haven’t seen, or looked for, those. Zimmerman had been treated and cleaned up BEFORE he was taken to the police station for those now imfamous videos of Zimmerman exiting the squad car and walking into and thru the police station. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/459 "2012-06-10T03:08:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > self defense. Please don’t defend yourself anywhere near my home. Please never come anywhere near my home, or my neighborhood, or my town. Please. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/460 "2012-06-10T03:19:43Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Please don’t defend yourself anywhere near my home. Please never come anywhere near my home, or my neighborhood, or my town. Please. Please put a “Gun Free Zone” sign outside your house and on your car. That way, no one will bother you except criminals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=24)