# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/481 "2012-06-10T05:53:37Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > You haven’t got the training to interpret that, do you? Just keep denying: page 122: “contact shot”. Meaning the forensic analysts estimate the gun was in contact with the clothes. page 127: stippling, intermediate range. Meaning the medical examiner estimates the gun was inches away from the skin. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/482 "2012-06-10T05:57:33Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > MY point, which I think you’re quite aware of, is that Zimmerman + guns=giant mess. Given that obvious fact, he needs to be incarcerated, because free men can always get guns in this country VERY easily, if they’re motivated. If Zimmerman used a knife instead of a gun to defend himself It would have made a bigger hole in Martin’s chest. ---
**Author:** ![Mgalindo13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea5d25/32.png) [@Mgalindo13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mgalindo13)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/483 "2012-06-10T07:36:18Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Guns are no substitute for martial arts skills. Get that through your heads. Words like these typically come from someone who has never actually studied martial arts. No **sane** instructor I’ve ever met has advocated hand-to-firearm combat. Even standard knife defense is to create distance and escape/run. If someone breaks into your house and you think they are armed you escape and call the police. > [@al27052](#): > > Uh, you DO realize that members of the Special Forces are quite often black belts and martial arts _instructors_, _right_? No, special forces members are not “quite often” black belts OR instructors. Yes, they receive hand-to-hand combat training, but that doesn’t instantly make them black belts. It generally takes 6-8 years of solid training to make black belt in any MA (like judo or BJJ) that is combat effective. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/484 "2012-06-10T08:28:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If Zimmerman used a knife instead of a gun to defend himself It would have made a bigger hole in Martin’s chest. Or maybe he wouldn’t have been following Martin around looking for an excuse to play Rambo. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/485 "2012-06-10T14:24:37Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Your complete lack of martial arts training makes this a completely fruitless discussion. I can agree with at least half of this sentence. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/486 "2012-06-10T15:02:19Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > We have evidence of motive/intent from the 911 tape. The man on the recording is not calm and cool-headed. He’s following someone he’s afraid of, who he suspects is drugged and weaponed. He’s labeled him a “punk” and thinks “they” always get away. He also knows Martin knows he’s being followed (because he noted that Martin saw him and was coming towards him…until he wasn’t anymore). He has to be cautioned not to do something that most rational people know is dangerous and unwise. Does he tell the police officers any of this in his account? Or does he stick to the “I just got out of my car to check the street sign” bit because he knows this paints him in the most favorable? We don’t know yet. We also don’t know what he told friends and family that may have contradicted what he told police officers. Seems to me that without knowing this information, no one should be proclaiming his innocence. The thing that none of us know is Zimmerman’s story in full. All we’ve been working with is snippets here and there. But there are elements of his story that have yet to officially see the light of day, and I strongly suspect that instead of helping Zimmerman’s case, they only make him look even more like a liar with an overactive but sloppy imagination. Like this whole business with Martin circling his car while he was talking to the dispatcher. I haven’t seen anyone who believes Zimmerman’s story address this newest addition to the narrative, probably because its so hard to swallow that its preferable to pretend that it’s just baseless rumor rather than go through the silly motions of accepting it. But I am curious what his defenders will say if and when this claim is brought up in court. Does anyone really believe that Martin circled Z’s truck while he was on the phone with the dispatcher? Zimmerman took exquisite care to describe Martin down to the button on his shirt and the position of his hand relative to his waistband, but he somehow neglected to tell the dispatcher Martin was doing 360s around his truck? America is supposed to buy this? Anyone who does, please raise your hands. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/487 "2012-06-10T15:28:37Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > You haven’t got the training to interpret that, do you? It was written in plain English. The technical terms can be looked up. The internet is a wonderful resource if you’re willing to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/488 "2012-06-10T15:40:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or maybe he wouldn’t have been following Martin around looking for an excuse to play Rambo. Have you looked at a map of the area? “Following around” consists of something like 225 feet. The entire route Martin took from the clubhouse to the confrontation was about 525 feet. You can look up the area on Google Earth and measure it yourself. And there is no evidence that he was playing Rambo. He had called the police and was doing the next logical thing which was to keep Martin in sight. He had asked the police to call his cell phone when they arrived so he could coordinate their search. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/489 "2012-06-10T15:49:50Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > …Like this whole business with Martin circling his car while he was talking to the dispatcher. I haven’t seen anyone who believes Zimmerman’s story address this newest addition to the narrative, probably because its so hard to swallow that its preferable to pretend that it’s just baseless rumor rather than go through the silly motions of accepting it. But I am curious what his defenders will say if and when this claim is brought up in court. Does anyone really believe that Martin circled Z’s truck while he was on the phone with the dispatcher? What will be brought up in court, if there is a trial? Martin punched Zimmerman, broke his nose and continued to beat him while he lay on the ground. Is there any evidence that will be presented by the prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this didn’t occur? If the two men had exchanged words until the police arrived, Martin might still be alive. Will a jury, if there’s a jury, decide this case on a 360 tour of Zimmerman vehicle? Zimmerman saw a suspicous person and called the police. The suspicious person watched Zimmerman while Zimmerman watched him. The suspicious person ran away. If I were selected for the jury, I would want to know how the two men met up again. Is there any evidence that Martin couldn’t have been on top of Zimmerman, pinning him to the ground, and beating his head on a concrete sidewalk. There are police photos and medical reports of Zimmermans bleeding head and numerous bruises. Martin had an injury to his hand and a hole in his chest. It’s obvious that Martin was winning any fight. Is there any evidence that Zimmerman didn’t believe that his very life was in danger? Is there any evidence that Zimmerman is actually guilty of 2nd degree murder? Not manslaughter or reckless endangerment but 2nd degree murder? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/490 "2012-06-10T16:05:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Dershowitz is also a very experienced legal expert. He tends (as I do, I think) to immediately analyze any set of facts from a defense perspective, but that’s not a flaw. (Of course I would say that!) > > But there’s one thing that makes Corey’s opinion about this evidence much better than Dershowitz’s, or mine. > > She’s seen it. So has Dershowitz. Dershowitz has only been addressing the information Corey presented to the judge to 1) arrest Zimmerman and 2) set Zimmerman’s bail. According to Dershowitz, based on what Corey actually presented, Zimmerman should not have been arrested for violating FLA laws according to FLA law. If Corey has “other” evidence that suggests a 2nd degree murder charge, it should have been presented to the judge or Zimmerman should not have been charged with 2nd degree murder. According to the Harvard law professor. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/491 "2012-06-10T16:12:42Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Like this whole business with Martin circling his car while he was talking to the dispatcher. I haven’t seen anyone who believes Zimmerman’s story address this newest addition to the narrative, probably because its so hard to swallow that its preferable to pretend that it’s just baseless rumor rather than go through the silly motions of accepting it. But I am curious what his defenders will say if and when this claim is brought up in court. Does anyone really believe that Martin circled Z’s truck while he was on the phone with the dispatcher? Nowhere on the 911 call did he say Martin did a 360 or circled his car. If his truck was on the street then Martin would have walked around it because there are no sidewalks between the clubhouse and the cut-through sidewalk that goes behind the houses (where the confrontation took place). ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/492 "2012-06-10T16:13:58Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > …My point **has nothing to do with** whether Zimmerman committed a crime. :o the law. Florida’s SYG law is BS, and I think all handguns should be banned, period. Not long guns, but handguns. They never WILL be, but that’s what I want to see. > > MY point, which I think you’re quite aware of, is that Zimmerman + guns=giant mess. **Given that obvious fact, he needs to be incarcerated** , because free men can always get guns in this country VERY easily, if they’re motivated. > > For that matter, the people who donated to his legal fund would probably LOVE to buy him 5 or 10 handguns. > > It’s a lovely world. Hahaha, you’re a hoot. You want Zimmerman sent to prison because he owns a firearm and used it defend his own life. You don’t care why he used it, only that he did use it. Do you believe that everyone who uses a handgun to defend their own life should be sent to prison? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/493 "2012-06-10T16:19:21Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > What will be brought up in court, if there is a trial? Martin punched Zimmerman, broke his nose and continued to beat him while he lay on the ground. Is there any evidence that will be presented by the prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this didn’t occur? I don’t see how Zimmerman’s statement won’t be brought up in court, since without it, he won’t be able make an affirmative defense. Remember, the onus is not just on the State to prove its side. Zimmerman has to offer a preponderance of evidence that he acted lawfully, and he won’t be able to do without his statement coming into play > [@](#): > > Will a jury, if there’s a jury, decide this case on a 360 tour of Zimmerman vehicle? Zimmerman’s entire defense rests upon his credibility. If the jury thinks he lied about what happened that night, then they have no reason to give any weight to his story of events. They will have to give more weight to other evidence, which more than likely goes against Zimmerman. > [@](#): > > Is there any evidence that Martin couldn’t have been on top of Zimmerman, pinning him to the ground, and beating his head on a concrete sidewalk. This is a silly question. You don’t look for evidence that someone couldn’t have been doing something. That’s like proving a negative. The better question is there any evidence that Zimmerman shot Martin unlawfully. And the answer to that is yes. Otherwise he wouldn’t be in jail right now. Do you think Martin circled Zimmerman’s car? Yes or no. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/494 "2012-06-10T16:20:46Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > So has Dershowitz. Dershowitz has only been addressing the information Corey presented to the judge to 1) arrest Zimmerman and 2) set Zimmerman’s bail. According to Dershowitz, based on what Corey actually presented, Zimmerman should not have been arrested for violating FLA laws according to FLA law. > > If Corey has “other” evidence that suggests a 2nd degree murder charge, it should have been presented to the judge or Zimmerman should not have been charged with 2nd degree murder. According to the Harvard law professor. If Dershowitz is right then the Prosecutor deliberately set the bar higher knowing it would be knocked down. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/495 "2012-06-10T16:28:04Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Which analysis is that? Are you a forensics expert? Work in the field? Trained in the field? > > I’ve learned to be skeptical of the “established facts” touted by people who hold extreme opinions. Hahaha. Unfortunately for you and your own extreme opinion, the courts do rely on “established facts”. All of the States rely on forensic experts which are also available to defendents. I’ve afraid there is nothing you can do about that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/496 "2012-06-10T16:30:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Do you think Martin circled Zimmerman’s car? Yes or no. I think he walked around his car because there is no sidewalk between the clubhouse and where the cut-through sidewalk picks up. If you look at the transcript of his 911 call he is not very good at describing stuff. Instead of telling them to stay on the road he keeps telling them to go left (the road bears to the left). Zimmerman: “Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left”. “Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck.” So unless he specifically said martin did a 360 then a description of circling his car is about as accurate as his skill-sets allow for. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/497 "2012-06-10T16:39:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Nowhere on the 911 call did he say Martin did a 360 or circled his car. Well…yeah, like, that’s the point. Glad you picked up on that detail. Z was mysteriously silent about Martin pacing around his truck, while it was supposedly happening, while he was on the phone. But later when he spoke to the cops after the shooting, he regaled them with a story about how Martin approached his vehicle and frightened him so bad that it made him roll up his [window](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-03/news/os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zimmerman-20120503_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-source-police-department). To me, this reads just like a lie intended to make Zimmerman look like as meek and nonconfrontational as possible, while making Martin look the opposite. There is no way to make it fit without looking ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/498 "2012-06-10T16:43:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If Dershowitz is right then the Prosecutor deliberately set the bar higher knowing it would be knocked down. Knocked down by who? The prosecutor? It was Corey who set the bar at 2nd degree. Dershowitz is saying that what Corey actually presented to the judge does not suggest 2nd degree murder. Dershowitz is suggesting that since Corey did not present evidence of 2nd degree, Zimmerman should not have been charged with 2nd degree. If Corey’s presented evidence that only suggests manslaughter, then Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter. The prosecutor shouldn’t be allowed to lie in court to falsely charge someone with a violation of a particular State law when the State can only prove that another State law has been violated. They can’t charge you with car theft just because you were caught speeding. The car actually has to have been stolen. Corey can always add or change the charges against Zimmerman up until the time jury selection begins or the first witness is sworn in if there is no jury. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/499 "2012-06-10T16:52:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I think he walked around his car because there is no sidewalk between the clubhouse and where the cut-through sidewalk picks up. > … > So unless he specifically said martin did a 360 then a description of circling his car is about as accurate as his skill-sets allow for. So, wait a minute. You think when Martin saw Z was looking at him and ran, prompting Z to exit his car to give chase…then what. Zimmerman promptly got back into his truck? And Martin immediately headed back to the scene and started pacing around the truck? To believe this, you’d have to believe something would have had to possessed these two guys to go into instant rewind mode and then behave in a manner completely antithetical to their initial behaviors. Doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/500 "2012-06-10T17:09:19Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Knocked down by who? The prosecutor? It was Corey who set the bar at 2nd degree. Dershowitz is saying that what Corey actually presented to the judge does not suggest 2nd degree murder. Dershowitz is suggesting that since Corey did not present evidence of 2nd degree, Zimmerman should not have been charged with 2nd degree. > > If Corey’s presented evidence that only suggests manslaughter, then Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter. The prosecutor shouldn’t be allowed to lie in court to falsely charge someone with a violation of a particular State law when the State can only prove that another State law has been violated. They can’t charge you with car theft just because you were caught speeding. The car actually has to have been stolen. > > Corey can always add or change the charges against Zimmerman up until the time jury selection begins or the first witness is sworn in if there is no jury. I was suggesting that the Corey presented a charge knowing it would be struck down. In other words, a sham trial to appease the public. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=26)