# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/521 "2012-06-10T19:30:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Also a good point. On its face, I think the warrant is deficient. > > But O’Mara hasn’t pushed the issue. And he has seen all the evidence. Has he? aside from his weak performance so far I don’t see how he could possible have seen all the evidence. Did you mean that he’s seen everything that the Prosecutor presented in pre-trial? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/522 "2012-06-10T19:34:32Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Which leads to the idea that at the minimum there is a question for a jury to resolve, which could mean there is no more than the evidence we have, although one would think they’d have something we don’t have. But they don’t have to. We already know we haven’t seen all the State’s evidence, so there’s no need to speculate about this. I hate to repeat myself, but hello? Zimmerman’s statement to the cops is major piece of evidence that none of us have seen. Zimmerman defenders are supporting a man that for all they know, told the cops whoppers so big they contradict things that are being treated like undisputable givens in this discussion. For instance, he could have claimed he never got out of his truck to follow Martin–despite his admission of that to the 911 dispatcher. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/523 "2012-06-10T19:38:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Has he? aside from his weak performance so far I don’t see how he could possible have seen all the evidence. Did you mean that he’s seen everything that the Prosecutor presented in pre-trial? He’s seen everything the State thinks merits the charge of 2nd murder. In other words, he seen a great deal more than numbskulls on the internet have. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/524 "2012-06-10T19:41:38Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > We already know we haven’t seen all the State’s evidence, so there’s no need to speculate about this. I hate to repeat myself, but hello? Zimmerman’s statement to the cops is major piece of evidence that none of us have seen. > > Zimmerman defenders are supporting a man that for all they know, told the cops whoppers so big they contradict things that are being treated like undisputable givens in this discussion. For instance, he could have claimed he never got out of his truck to follow Martin–despite his admission of that to the 911 dispatcher. If he told the cops a whopper then he would have been arrested after the 5 hr interview. Now if something new comes about (alluded to by the prosecutor) that contradicts his statements that should have come out in the Prosecutors pretrial briefing. All we can discuss is what we know now. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/525 "2012-06-10T19:44:51Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He’s seen everything the State thinks merits the charge of 2nd murder. In other words, he seen a great deal more than numbskulls on the internet have. Ah yes, always nice to have names called in a debate. Way to advance a point. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/526 "2012-06-10T19:52:28Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > > [@al27052](#): > > > > …My point **has nothing to do with** whether Zimmerman committed a crime. :o the law. **doorhinge** , you’re not allowed to change text inside the quote boxes like this. If you object to the language someone has used, just don’t quote it. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/527 "2012-06-10T19:57:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If he told the cops a whopper then he would have been arrested after the 5 hr interview. Now if something new comes about (alluded to by the prosecutor) that contradicts his statements that should have come out in the Prosecutors pretrial briefing. All we can discuss is what we know now. At the bond hearing, Gilbreath said there were multiple inconsistencies and contradictions in his statement. We already know the cops (Serino) tried to arrest Zimmerman, but for one reason or another, they were prevented from doing so. The only person from Sanford PD (Chief Lee) who defended the decision not to arrest Zimmerman was given a no confidence vote and pressured into resigning from his post. Also note that the SA (Wolfinger) did not come out in support of not arresting Zimmerman. The office’s position was that the cops could have done so, if that was of their choosing. What does this mean? It means _everyone involved in this case_, with the exception of Chief Lee, felt there was a case to made for pressing charges against Zimmerman. This “everyone” even includes O’Mara, who has not tried to get the charges dismissed. But you somehow think they are all wrong? Okay, buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/528 "2012-06-10T20:22:01Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t see how Zimmerman’s statement won’t be brought up in court, since without it, he won’t be able make an affirmative defense. Remember, the onus is not just on the State to prove its side. Zimmerman has to offer a preponderance of evidence that he acted lawfully, and he won’t be able to do without his statement coming into play Possibly true (I’m not sure how Fla. law works on this point), however, this: > [@](#): > > Zimmerman’s entire defense rests upon his credibility. If the jury thinks he lied about what happened that night, then they have no reason to give any weight to his story of events. is not necessarily the case. Under US law (and I believe **Bricker** will back me up on this), unrebutted evidence stands as fact. That’s what “preponderance of the evidence” _means_. Unless the prosecution presents actual evidence that his story is false on an important point, the jury is _compelled by law_ to accept it as fact. They can’t conclude he lied, unless the prosecution presents _evidence_ that he did. If Zimmerman testifies that Martin stood on his head and whistled the national anthem while space aliens danced in the background and Elvis sang harmony, and that were somehow relevant to a point they must prove, the jury has to accept it as true unless the prosecution gives evidence against it, regardless of how ridiculous it sounds. If they convict, because they didn’t believe the space aliens part, but the prosecution didn’t rebut that point, the judge, or the appeals court, will set aside the verdict. > [@](#): > > This is a silly question. You don’t look for evidence that someone couldn’t have been doing something. You do if the defendant testified to it, and it’s a vital part of what the state must prove or rebut. See the above. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/529 "2012-06-10T20:22:37Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But you somehow think they are all wrong? Okay, buddy. I’ve presented the evidence at hand and commented on it. That changes as the information changes. And I’m not your buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/530 "2012-06-10T20:28:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The video from the clubhouse is one of the exhibits. Again, this is something the prosecutor has looked at that the public has not. If what Zimmerman claims is known to be false, it very well might be because the feed on that tape contradicts his story. So it probably doesn’t matter what explanations you can concoct to make things kinda sorta fit. Link to the fact that there is a video from the clubhouse and that it has not been released? There were two things that were not released: Zimmerman’s interrogation statements and telecom records. All the other stuff is supposed to have been released, and there is no lawful justification to hold it back. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/531 "2012-06-10T20:30:56Z")
> [@David42](#): > > again could this be cited please, about the Harvard Professor and Corey’s threats? [http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Zimmerman-Trayvon-Angela-Corey/2012/06/05/id/441305](http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Zimmerman-Trayvon-Angela-Corey/2012/06/05/id/441305) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/532 "2012-06-10T20:43:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Link to the fact that there is a video from the clubhouse and that it has not been released? Never said it hasn’t been released, just that the public hasn’t seen it. Are you saying this is the first time you’ve heard of this evidence? [http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/video-from-night-of-shooting-among-evidence-unveiled](http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/video-from-night-of-shooting-among-evidence-unveiled) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/533 "2012-06-10T20:46:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve presented the evidence at hand and commented on it. You’ve presented no evidence that the case against Zimmerman is a “sham”. All you’ve offered is a poorly supported opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/534 "2012-06-10T20:49:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Never said it hasn’t been released, just that the public hasn’t seen it. Are you saying this is the first time you’ve heard of this evidence? > [http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/video-from-night-of-shooting-among-evidence-unveiled](http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/video-from-night-of-shooting-among-evidence-unveiled) No, haven’t seen it mentioned. When I said “released”, I mean released to the public. Not just to the defense. This means that the MSM have the video. I am sure if there was anything interesting in it, it would have been up on their web sites already. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/535 "2012-06-10T20:59:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, haven’t seen it mentioned. When I said “released”, I mean released to the public. Not just to the defense. This means that the MSM have the video. I am sure if there was anything interesting in it, it would have been up on their web sites already. Why do you assume they would release all evidence in a pending legal matter? They may be playing politics but by what reasoning do you claim they would release every tiny bit to the world? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/536 "2012-06-10T21:02:58Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Why do you assume they would release all evidence in a pending legal matter? Because Florida laws require that they do? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/537 "2012-06-10T21:07:39Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Under US law (and I believe **Bricker** will back me up on this), unrebutted evidence stands as fact. That’s what “preponderance of the evidence” _means_. Unless the prosecution presents actual evidence that his story is false on an important point, the jury is _compelled by law_ to accept it as fact. They can’t conclude he lied, unless the prosecution presents _evidence_ that he did. If Zimmerman goes up to the witness stand and says that Martin stood on his head and whistled, there is nothing that legally requires the jury to turn off it’s brain and accept this as true. The legal system does not work that way. Remember, it’s indisputable that he killed Martin, so the State doesnt even have to prove Zimmerman pulled the trigger. With that off the table, all the State needs to show is that the Zimmerman acted unlawfully. If the only testimony in Zimmerman’s favor contains plot holes and inconsistencies so big you could drive a truck through them, it doesn’t matter if the State can’t prove, for instance, that Martin didn’t circle his truck like a shark. It is an element of his story that is glaringly off when compared to the other evidence. Are you familiar with the Scott Peterson trial? He made the claim that he went fishing alone the day his wife disappeared. Later, her body washed up in an area consistent with where he would have taken his boat. This finding was offered up as damning evidence against Peterson, and yet it didn’t contradict anything he’d told the police. The jury was not forced to accept that he had been fishing alone that day. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/538 "2012-06-10T21:12:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, haven’t seen it mentioned. When I said “released”, I mean released to the public. Not just to the defense. This means that the MSM have the video. I am sure if there was anything interesting in it, it would have been up on their web sites already. It’s not up on YouTube or MSM, but that doesn’t mean it’s not interesting. I mean, it wasnt as if the 7-11 video was super enthralling and yet that got plenty of play. I don’t know why it isn’t available. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/539 "2012-06-10T21:14:52Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It’s not up on YouTube or MSM, but that doesn’t mean it’s not interesting. I mean, it wasnt as if the 7-11 video was super enthralling and yet that got plenty of play. I don’t know why it isn’t available. If it had any information in it that was in any way important to the case, it would be up on youtube or MSM web sites already. No way will they be sitting on important info. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/540 "2012-06-10T21:20:59Z")
Ah I found the “clubhouse” videos. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Lb74bZhXDkI/hqdefault.jpg "EastPool.avi George Zimmerman Trayvon Martin") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb74bZhXDkI) https://www.youtube.com/embed/-KR8fIbAhMg?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&list=PL8C8A9474763ACB92 https://www.youtube.com/embed/KP8v1sk68EU?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&list=PL8C8A9474763ACB92 https://www.youtube.com/embed/UPPB3EB-JlU?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&list=PL8C8A9474763ACB92 https://www.youtube.com/embed/03gIsN4LlTY?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&list=PL8C8A9474763ACB92 https://www.youtube.com/embed/czdwBkPZwbs?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&list=PL8C8A9474763ACB92 https://www.youtube.com/embed/7aO-tFlbAzw?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&list=PL8C8A9474763ACB92 basically there is nothing on them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=28)