# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/41 "2012-05-19T02:09:36Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > For clarification I am not positing an alternate reality. Part of what I would like to get to the bottom of is whether the prosecution could legally rebut GZ claim of SYG by presenting evidence that Martin was legally standing his own ground. No. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/42 "2012-05-19T02:16:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Why? Is it a matter of how the law is written, or your opinion based on the available facts about the case? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/43 "2012-05-19T03:15:22Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > If you’re being followed at night what would you do? Turn and confront the unknown person or take the shortest route to your destination? Travon turning to confront Zimmerman suggests a bit of a “bad ass” attitude that resulted in getting himself killed. Are you a member of the human race? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/44 "2012-05-19T03:54:04Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > Why? Is it a matter of how the law is written, or your opinion based on the available facts about the case? It’s because whether Martin could have claimed SYG is irrelevant to Zimmerman’s SYG claim. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/45 "2012-05-19T04:33:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s because whether Martin could have claimed SYG is irrelevant to Zimmerman’s SYG claim. How can two competing claims of SYG be irrelevant to each other? If two people can legally claim SYG in the same confrontation, then the State of Florida has in practice declared dueling to be legal. Hyperbole aside, I don’t think the spirit of the law was such that the protections under the law are only extended to the survivor. Now defining which individual had the legal right to SYG is probably murky as hell but it seems counter intuitive that both would have the same protections. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/46 "2012-05-19T04:36:06Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > How can two competing claims of SYG be irrelevant to each other? Why not? The law says absolutely nothing about the other person’s SYG (or just plain self-defense, for that matter) claim. Thus it is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > Hyperbole aside, I don’t think the spirit of the law was such that the protections under the law are only extended to the survivor. Seriously? Please explain how, practically, “protection under the law” can be extended to a dead man. Protection from what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/47 "2012-05-19T04:52:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Seriously? Please explain how, practically, “protection under the law” can be extended to a dead man. Protection from what, exactly? Protection under the law in this case meaning to allow Prosecutors to bring the dead persons right to SYG as evidence to refute the survivors claim to SYG. Ultimately it would be up to the judge/jury to determine who was legally standing their ground. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/48 "2012-05-19T04:55:30Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > Protection under the law in this case meaning to allow Prosecutors to bring the dead persons right to SYG as evidence to refute the survivors claim to SYG. Ultimately it would be up to the judge/jury to determine who was legally standing their ground. Again, protection from what? And as I pointed out above, the law says absolutely nothing about anyone’s claim to SYG negating someone else’s claim. So, whether Martin’s behavior could be considered self-defense is irrelevant to Zimmerman’s self-defense claim. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/49 "2012-05-19T05:02:22Z")
If some dude was following you and got out of his car to confront you, do you not have a reasonable basis to believe you are at risk of bodily harm? And keep in mind that Zimmerman was a little unhinged and made a ton of 911 calls and if you listen to the recording of the call he made that night, he seems totally hyped for confrontation. Dude like that was following me and got out of his car with the attitude he likely had, I’d totally consider attacking first. More likely, I’d consider talking my way out of it hogsnake style. The hogsnake tries to confuse its opponent. It’s saved me from a mugging and a bashing, though I have to admit I kinda escalated the pedestrian harassing incident into a potential bashing. And do we really have ANY evidence that Martin did any physical harm to Zimmerman? I can’t see any signs of the supposed broken nose in the earliest police video. And look at Zimmerman’s history, he’s clearly some jerk who longed to be a hero by killing someone he considered subhuman. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/50 "2012-05-19T05:09:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, protection from what? > > And as I pointed out above, the law says absolutely nothing about anyone’s claim to SYG negating someone else’s claim. So, whether Martin’s behavior could be considered self-defense is irrelevant to Zimmerman’s self-defense claim. I defined precisely what I meant by protection under the law for the dead person. I will not play semantics. Nonsense, the law specifically states that a person must not be engaged in unlawful activity. Therefore, if one person in a confrontation has a legal claim to SYG, then the other person must surely be engaged in some form of unlawful activity at that moment thereby negating the other persons claim to SYG regardless of who survives the encounter. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/51 "2012-05-19T05:26:17Z")
> [@Rampant\_Coypu](#): > > If some dude was following you and got out of his car to confront you, do you not have a reasonable basis to believe you are at risk of bodily harm? No. You do not have a reasonable basis to believe you’re at risk of bodily harm just from someone following you or “confronting” you (if by “confronting” you mean something less than physical contact or brandishing a weapon). > [@](#): > > Dude like that was following me and got out of his car with the attitude he likely had, I’d totally consider attacking first. And you would be committing a felony. > [@](#): > > And do we really have ANY evidence that Martin did any physical harm to Zimmerman? I can’t see any signs of the supposed broken nose in the earliest police video. And look at Zimmerman’s history, he’s clearly some jerk who longed to be a hero by killing someone he considered subhuman. Yes. Evidence was released two days ago that shows Zimmerman’s multiple injuries including a broken nose (and none on Martin except the broken skin on a knuckle). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/52 "2012-05-19T05:31:21Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > I defined precisely what I meant by protection under the law for the dead person. I will not play semantics. > > Nonsense, the law specifically states that a person must not be engaged in unlawful activity. Therefore, if one person in a confrontation has a legal claim to SYG, then the other person must surely be engaged in some form of unlawful activity at that moment thereby negating the other persons claim to SYG regardless of who survives the encounter. Wrong. First, it is not just “unlawful activity”, it is felony. Second, that felony has to be in process prior to the confrontation. For example, if someone is robbing you, and you fight him, he cannot claim self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/53 "2012-05-19T05:45:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. First, it is not just “unlawful activity”, it is felony. Second, that felony has to be in process prior to the confrontation. For example, if someone is robbing you, and you fight him, he cannot claim self-defense. No, the law as cited in this thread simply says “unlawful activity” and does not specify felonly. It says that one may act to “ **prevent** a forcible felony”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/54 "2012-05-19T05:53:08Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Are you a member of the human race? This sort of personal insult is not permitted anywhere except The BBQ Pit forum. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/55 "2012-05-19T05:55:36Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > No, the law as cited in this thread simply says “unlawful activity” and does not specify felonly. It says that one may act to “ **prevent** a forcible felony”. > **[Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799%2F0776%2F0776.html)** 776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a **forcible felony** ; or ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/56 "2012-05-19T21:36:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html) > > 776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: > (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a **forcible felony** ; or That portion of the law does not address the question at hand, it only serves to prevent someone who was already in the midst of a crime from claiming self defense. The law does not specify that this is the only time when someone is precluded from claiming SYG. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/57 "2012-05-19T22:56:18Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > That portion of the law does not address the question at hand, it only serves to prevent someone who was already in the midst of a crime from claiming self defense. The law does not specify that this is the only time when someone is precluded from claiming SYG. No, that’s not the only time. You also cannot claim SYG if there is no reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/58 "2012-05-19T23:00:34Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > I defined precisely what I meant by protection under the law for the dead person. I will not play semantics. For the record–just because someone is dead doesn’t mean their estate can’t be sued. Presumably, a dead person (and therefore their estate) could be protected from a lawsuit related to the incident they were shot in if SYG applied. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/59 "2012-05-19T23:52:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, that’s not the only time. You also cannot claim SYG if there is no reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. Incorrect, that portion of the law simply defines when under NO circumstances can one claim SYG defense. As written the law leaves open the opportunity for one to be declined SYG defense do to non-felonious unlawful activity depending on the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/60 "2012-05-20T01:03:14Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? The Florida statute simply says that “He or she (person using deadly force) reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.” It doesn’t say anything about not being able to shoot someone who is beating you. Correct. That’s why I said “generally.” Assuming Zimmerman’s story to be true, someone on top of you pummeling you and reaching for your gun does rise to that level of a fear of death or serious bodily harm. I was speaking more in a context of two guys (of similar size) in a bar getting mouthy with each other and one guy slaps the other and is greeted with a gunshot to the chest. That’s clearly UNreasonable given the circumstances and an escalation of the force. The “meet force with force” language and the rest of the common law implies a type of force reasonable to the circumstances. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=4)