# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/601 "2012-06-11T15:36:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Miranda rights are read at arrest? Zimmerman was not arrested. I’ve read on the internet that Zimmerman was read Miranda at the police station on the night of the shooting. I’ve also read on the internet that Zimmerman declined the opportunity to talk to a lawyer. I’ve also read on the internet that Martin was carrying Arizona Ice Tea which was definately not true. idk. The officer who detained Zimmerman said he didn’t question Zimmerman either before or after he detained Zimmerman at the scene. He did say he did not read Miranda to Zimmerman. I couldn’t swear in court as to when Zimmerman was actually notified of his Miranda rights. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/602 "2012-06-11T16:50:59Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Okay, but if this were a problem which made it a truly flawed affidavit, **the judge should have rejected it**. But he didn’t, so that tells me one of two things. > > Either the affidavit is fine and all this jibber jabber about it being insufficient is just that…jibber jabber. > > Or that the judge, and everyone else who has looked at and accepted it, is too incompetent to do their jobs correctly and should probably be disbarred. > > **Call me crazy** , but I’m leaning towards the first. > > I would take Dershowitz’s complaints more seriously if he didn’t seem to be fixated on Corey to the exclusion of everyone else. Attention whoring drama queen are words that come to mind. OK. You’re crazy, but I don’t know what that has to do with Martin/Zimmerman? The judge assumes that both sides are telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The judge will do this because he assumes that both lawyers are honorable people who know the laws of FLA and they realize that the judge can make their lives a bit more miserable if they are “caught” lying to him . As it turns out, both lawyers did not tell the “whole” truth. There are many aspects of the case that completely throw the basic legal premise that an individual is “innocent until proven guilty”, right out the window. What was a simple shooting (self-defense, SYG, or pre-meditated homicide) was overtaken by a lynch mob mentality. NBC/MSNBC and their talkshow host, Sharpton, lied about what had happened and even falsified audio and video recordings to convict Zimmerman in the court of public opinion. ABC stole or obtained a stolen video tape of Zimmerman’s entrance into the police station. Spike Lee distributed Zimmerman’s address, which turned out to be the wrong address. The New Black Panther party offered $10,000 reward for Zimmerman’s capture (kidnapping) or killing (premeditated murder) which they later changed to just kidnapping. Some of Martin’s high school disiplinary records were released in spite of the records being sealed. And so on and so on and … Corey’s job seems to be try Zimmerman AND to put a lid on the lynch mobs and if that includes “charging” Zimmerman with 2nd degree, so be it. Dershowitz, speaking as a Harvard law prof who is regularly used by various lame stream media outlets, was asked many weeks ago about his opinion of the Martin/Zimmerman case. Dershowitz, from a law professor’s point of view, responded that the affidavit presented to the court by Corey, sucked. He didn’t address Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence, only Corey’s lack of producing evidence that backed up the 2nd degree charge. This is a proceedural issue. I have no idea if O’Mara is a competent attorney or not. I wouldn’t hire him to defend me. I would prefer Casey Anthony’s or an OJ Simpson type lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/603 "2012-06-11T16:58:32Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Whatever. “I don’t believe it cause you’re not **Bricker** ” is still pretty weak here. No, dude. It’s “because I don’t know if you’re a reliable source”. That’s it. You’re fairly new here. I haven’t yet gotten to know if you are reliable. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/604 "2012-06-11T16:58:33Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Your understanding is incorrect. > > CMC fnord! First time someone has said this in all the posts Ive made. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/605 "2012-06-11T17:55:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > OK. You’re crazy, but I don’t know what that has to do with Martin/Zimmerman? > > The judge assumes that both sides are telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The judge will do this because he assumes that both lawyers are honorable people who know the laws of FLA and they realize that the judge can make their lives a bit more miserable if they are “caught” lying to him . As it turns out, both lawyers did not tell the “whole” truth. Do you really think the judge wasn’t aware of Zimmerman’s injuries when he looked at that affidavit? He’d have to be living in a Siberian cave for that to have been the case. Thanks for calling me crazy in GD, but I’m not the one invested in complaining about a dead issue just because Dershowitz wants to reignite his celebrity. The case against Zimmerman has long moved past the indictment phase. If you’re so convinced this is all just one big glorious sham, maybe you should get around to focusing your ire on Z’s defense. Not only has O’Mara failed to make the affidavit an issue, so has [Donald West](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/06/04/2832721/defense-zimmerman-made-a-mistake.html). So apparently that makes one new addition to the list of incompetents associated with Florida’s legal system, as determined by random opinionated people on the Internet. Z’s supporters are only getting what they pay for. Maybe they should pull the plug on the cash flow if they can’t even trust their lawyers to file the appropriate motions. If I were them, I would. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/606 "2012-06-11T18:07:25Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Okay, but if this were a problem which made it a truly flawed affidavit, the judge should have rejected it. But he didn’t, so that tells me one of two things. > > Either the affidavit is fine and all this jibber jabber about it being insufficient is just that…jibber jabber. It’s jibber jabber, in the sense that it’s not illegal to do. Dershowitz’ complaint here is that it’s wrong – but not illegal – for the prosecutor to do it. My point is that while this may be true, it’s nonetheless widely practiced and not something likely to be legally fatal. > [@](#): > > Or that the judge, and everyone else who has looked at and accepted it, is too incompetent to do their jobs correctly and should probably be disbarred. If you woke up tomorrow to a headline that said, “Judge Lester Dismisses Charges; Says Affidavit Insufficient,” what would be your reaction? What do you expect would be the public reaction? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/607 "2012-06-11T18:17:08Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Thanks for calling me crazy in GD, You asked to be called crazy. It was a humorous literal response to a literal statement. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/608 "2012-06-11T18:44:47Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Do you really think the judge wasn’t aware of Zimmerman’s injuries when he looked at that affidavit? He’d have to be living in a Siberian cave for that to have been the case. The judge was supposed to determine whether the affidavit justified the charge. It doesn’t but the judge accepted it anyway. Sloppy work or concern of the lynch mobs potential for violence? Remember that there were several major networks who were daily falsifying the events that led to mobs stealing Arizona Ice Tea and Skittles from stores and moron’s like the NPPP and Spike Lee encouraging the lynch mobs to take matters into their own hands. O’Mara should have objected, Corey should have told the whole truth, and the judge seems to be just going thru the motions. None of these things change the events that occured the night of the shooting. Did Zimmerman believe his life was in danger. Did Zimmerman do anything that would legally disqualify him from claiming self-defense or a judge/jury from finding this was a justifiable homicide? I believe that if you don’t want Hiroshima, you shouldn’t start Pearl Harbour. Martin should have kept his hands to himself. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/609 "2012-06-11T19:05:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you woke up tomorrow to a headline that said, “Judge Lester Dismisses Charges; Says Affidavit Insufficient,” what would be your reaction? What do you expect would be the public reaction? I wonder why he did that. Then I would listen to the explanations. If the explanations were well-supported, then I would be forced to conclude that the judge made an appropriate ruling on the affidavit. Who cares what the public reaction would be? People would be upset, but it ain’t like people aren’t upset now. People are always upset. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/610 "2012-06-11T19:11:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I wonder why he did that. Then I would listen to the explanations. If the explanations were well-supported, then I would be forced to conclude that the judge made an appropriate ruling on the affidavit. > > Who cares what the public reaction would be? People would be upset, but it ain’t like people aren’t upset now. People are always upset. Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but if enough people are upset, Judge Lester may lose his next re-election bid. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/611 "2012-06-11T19:17:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but if enough people are upset, Judge Lester may lose his next re-election bid. So why isn’t he worried about that now? He’s got Dershowitz throwing shade on the legitimacy of that affidavit, and plenty of constitutients who have convinced themselves that this all a sham. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/612 "2012-06-11T19:42:30Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So why isn’t he worried about that now? He’s got Dershowitz throwing shade on the legitimacy of that affidavit, and plenty of constitutients who have convinced themselves that this all a sham. Because a sham can be a good thing. It allows things to cool down. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/613 "2012-06-11T19:44:42Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So why isn’t he worried about that now? He’s got Dershowitz throwing shade on the legitimacy of that affidavit, and plenty of constitutients who have convinced themselves that this all a sham. I have two theories. They are not mutually exclusive. 1. the groups agitating for Zimmerman’s conviction are more numerous, more vocal, and are more likely to be effective in an election than the people – not groups – agitating for his freedom. 2. o’Mara and Judge Lester both know there’s damning evidence unreleased yet, and they know if Corey needs to, she can supply a sufficient affidavit. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/614 "2012-06-11T20:00:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have two theories. They are not mutually exclusive. > > 1. the groups agitating for Zimmerman’s conviction are more numerous, more vocal, and are more likely to be effective in an election than the people – not groups – agitating for his freedom. > > 2. o’Mara and Judge Lester both know there’s damning evidence unreleased yet, and they know if Corey needs to, she can supply a sufficient affidavit. 1. it was a high profile case like the Duke Lacross incident and needed a cooling off period. I find it hard to believe Zimmerman’s attorney would allow a crappy affidavit to go through regardless of something juicy that’s hidden. Where’s the benefit to either side to hide it? There are no Perry Mason moments in trials anymore because both sides have to be given the evidence the other has. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/615 "2012-06-11T20:06:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have two theories. They are not mutually exclusive. > > 1. the groups agitating for Zimmerman’s conviction are more numerous, more vocal, and are more likely to be effective in an election than the people – not groups – agitating for his freedom. If the ball was just in Lester’s court, maybe this would be halfway likely. But when you factor in O’Mara et al. into the equation, the likelihood becomes remote. It’s not impossible that all the people involved in this case are victims of uni-directional political pressure. But it’s extremely improbable. We are talking about Florida, a state with no shortage of meat-eating, gun-toting conservatives. Their SYG law didn’t spring out of ether. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/616 "2012-06-11T20:11:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > 1. o’Mara and Judge Lester both know there’s damning evidence unreleased yet, and they know if Corey needs to, she can supply a sufficient affidavit. If she can, why didn’t she? And I don’t mean show her whole hand, just _something_ to make the affidavit look a bit less than a complete travesty. (Not that including that kind of stuff in the affidavit would somehow detrimentally uncover her hand, since it would come out in discovery anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/617 "2012-06-11T20:17:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If she can, why didn’t she? And I don’t mean show her whole hand, just _something_ to make the affidavit look a bit less than a complete travesty. (Not that including that kind of stuff in the affidavit would somehow detrimentally uncover her hand, since it would come out in discovery anyway). She doesn’t have “a hand”. She’s legally required to show the defense what she has and vice-versa. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/618 "2012-06-11T20:21:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > She doesn’t have “a hand”. She’s legally required to show the defense what she has and vice-versa. As I said. But at the time the affidavit was submitted there was no discovery process yet, so yes, she had a “hand”. So, if she has some dynamite piece of evidence, what is the advantage of not mentioning it in the affidavit and looking like an incompetent overzealous ass? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/619 "2012-06-11T20:35:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If she can, why didn’t she? This is my theory: Zimmerman’s injuries have little or nothing to do with the State’s case against him. Whether he had a paper scratch or a coma-threatening concussion, it doesn’t alter the evidence they have on him that shows he committed murder 2. So could she have documented his little boos boos in her affidavit? Sure. But she opted not to do so. At the end of the day, she isn’t basing a case on that. She is focused on something else. I’m betting this is also why Gilbreath expressed indifference towards Z’s medical records at the bond hearing. The defense wants this all to be about Z’s injuries. But that’s not what defines whether Z was authorized to use deadly force. If the state has evidence that he assaulted Martin or that he shot Martin when he was not in any reasonable danger, then cuts to his head cease to matter. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/620 "2012-06-11T21:17:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 1. it was a high profile case like the Duke Lacross incident and needed a cooling off period. I find it hard to believe Zimmerman’s attorney would allow a crappy affidavit to go through regardless of something juicy that’s hidden. Where’s the benefit to either side to hide it? There are no Perry Mason moments in trials anymore because both sides have to be given the evidence the other has. There is a discussion of the affidavit over here: [http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/6/63420/28270](http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/6/63420/28270) If I understand it correctly. Her affidavit doesn’t actually violate Florida law. [http://www.joffelaw.com/state-rules/3-140.html](http://www.joffelaw.com/state-rules/3-140.html) There are some questions about various ABA standards she might have violated. I’m also a little confused on the timeline. Did Judge Lester actually rule on this affidavit or was that Judge Recksiedler? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=32)