# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/781 "2012-06-20T14:40:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In a trial of Zimmerman, “following someone around like a creeper, on a dark rainy night, despite Martin’s attempts to get away” does not contain enough information for a jury to find an imminent threat committed by Zimmerman. Why not? Are you saying juries can’t use their subjective opinion and common sense to decide whether Zimmerman’s behavior that night would have caused a reasonable person to be in fear for their safety? If this is allowable for a jury, then you can’t say “following someone around like a creeper, on a dark rainy night, despite Martin’s attempts to get away” is insufficient information. Not unless you’re speaking for a jury that doesn’t even exist yet. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/782 "2012-06-20T14:59:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Unfortunately, he’s not a lawyer. He’s a funeral director. > > He may believe that his law doesn’t apply. > > But the courts do not interpret law by going back and checking with the author of the law. > > [Can you explain this outcome?](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/03/22/149153379/stand-your-ground-miami-judge-decides-fatal-stabbing-was-self-defense) if what the horse’s mouth says is true, that is: What crime did Zimmerman see Martin commit? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/783 "2012-06-20T15:12:34Z")
To clarify the case you cited had an individual who was cought breaking into the defendants car, note the Forcible felony list from earlier > [@](#): > > 776.08 Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual. > [@](#): > > (b) For offenses committed after July 1, 2001, “burglary” means: > 1. Entering a dwelling, a structure, or a conveyance with the intent to commit an offense therein, unless the premises are at the time open to the public or the defendant is licensed or invited to enter; So once again, how did this apply in the Zimmerman case? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/784 "2012-06-20T15:14:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I suggest this came from the other end of the horse. Baxley seems a bit confused about the laws he helped pass and who said what that evening. I’m sure he’s figured it out by now. > > \*…I would like to emphasize that the approach that is currently developing in this situation, **to convene a grand jury** , is the proper one in which to discern the facts of this case. I certainly agree with everyone that justice must be served. > > During the debate concerning this incident, some have brought into question the “Stand Your Ground” law, **more commonly referred to as the “castle doctrine,”** which has been used by the attacker to pardon his actions. > > …Quite simply the castle doctrine is a good law which now protects individuals in a majority of states. However, the castle doctrine does not provide protection to individuals **who seek to pursue and confront others** , as is allegedly the case in the Trayvon Martin tragedy in Sanford. > > …There is no protection in the “Stand Your Ground” law for anyone who pursues and confronts people. > > By Rep. Dennis Baxley\* > > Corey decided that she don’t need no stinkin’ Grand Jury to convict Zimmerman. > > SYG is not the Castle doctrine. > > After Martin was seen running away, meaning that the two men were no longer in contact with each other, the next confrontation was initiated by Martin who was “pursuing and confronting” Zimmerman. Please cite your evidence on the path of Martin and that he ambushed Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/785 "2012-06-20T15:21:38Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > What crime did Zimmerman see Martin commit? Zimmerman witnessed Martin beating him, pinning him to the ground, and continuing to beat him. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/786 "2012-06-20T15:25:44Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Zimmerman witnessed Martin beating him, pinning him to the ground, and continuing to beat him. That was after the chasing him down bit happened, and if he was pinned to the ground there is no need to invoke a duty to retreat exemption because it was not an option. Thus if true this would be normal self defense laws and not SYG. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/787 "2012-06-20T15:31:21Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Please cite your evidence on the path of Martin and that he ambushed Zimmerman. Again? Zimmerman brother has said that Zimmerman told him that Martin approached Zimmerman from behind. Do YOU consider that to be an “ambush”? I consider that to be a confrontation between two people who wondered why the other person was there. That would explain why both men asked the other, “What are you doing here.” Does Corey have evidence that Zimmerman version did not happen or could not have happened? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/788 "2012-06-20T15:38:52Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Again? > > Zimmerman brother has said that Zimmerman told him that Martin approached Zimmerman from behind. > > Do YOU consider that to be an “ambush”? I consider that to be a confrontation between two people who wondered why the other person was there. That would explain why both men asked the other, “What are you doing here.” > > Does Corey have evidence that Zimmerman version did not happen or could not have happened? And is hearsay admissible evidence? And you admit that both suspects were likely facing each other before the assault began if they both talked? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/789 "2012-06-20T15:39:13Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > That was after the **chasing him down** bit happened, and if he was pinned to the ground there is no need to invoke a duty to retreat exemption because it was not an option. > > Thus if true this would be normal self defense laws and not SYG. I believe that has been stated by O’Mara. It’s a self-defense case. That doesn’t mean that O’Mara, or whoever Zimmerman’s attouney will be if the case ever goes to trail, can change their intended defense. Who do you believe was chasing who? Was Zimmerman running backwards after Martin who was also running backwards to get away? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/790 "2012-06-20T15:47:16Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I believe that has been stated by O’Mara. It’s a self-defense case. That doesn’t mean that O’Mara, or whoever Zimmerman’s attouney will be if the case ever goes to trail, can change their intended defense. > > Who do you believe was chasing who? Was Zimmerman running backwards after Martin who was also running backwards to get away? No, in this case the burden of proof is on you, in this thread we are talking about Martin’s right to defense, you need to prove intent. According to the evidence Trayvon approached him from the left rear but it is quite possible for that to happen if, what was Zimmerman returning to his truck was perceived by Trayvon as him circling back past his hiding place. But by not answering I guess you do concede we currently have no reliable information about the path of Trayvon? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/791 "2012-06-20T15:47:24Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > And is hearsay admissible evidence? > > And you admit that both suspects were likely facing each other before the assault began if they both talked? Zimmerman’s brother will not be called to testify. I assume that both men were facing each other while they were asking each other questions. I assume both men were facing each other when Martin punched Zimmerman and broke his nose. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/792 "2012-06-20T15:53:16Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Zimmerman’s brother will not be called to testify. > > I assume that both men were facing each other while they were asking each other questions. I assume both men were facing each other when Martin punched Zimmerman and broke his nose. So the direction of approach by Martin matters how? There is documentation Zimmerman has a temper and a tendency to snap, I am sure Martin’s Defense team could have made a compelling argument that it may have happened in this case. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/793 "2012-06-20T15:58:39Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > No, in this case the burden of proof is on you, in this thread we are talking about Martin’s right to defense, you need to prove intent. > > According to the evidence Trayvon approached him from the left rear but it is quite possible for that to happen if, what was Zimmerman returning to his truck was perceived by Trayvon as him circling back past his hiding place. > > But by not answering I guess you do concede we currently have no reliable information about the path of Trayvon? Hahaha. Everyone in FLA has a right to defend their own lives. Everyone, including Martin, Zimmerman, Corey, Sharpton, and convicted felons have a right to use lethal force to defend their lives if they believe that their life in in imminent danger except as covered by the specific exclusions of FLA law. If you believe that Martin believed that Zimmerman was circling past him, all you (or more to the point, Corey) have to do is produce some evidence or eyewitness that says that happened. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/794 "2012-06-20T16:01:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > There is documentation Zimmerman has a temper and a tendency to snap, I am sure Martin’s Defense team could have made a compelling argument that it may have happened in this case. Not if that “documentation” is inadmissible. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/795 "2012-06-20T16:09:30Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So the direction of approach by Martin matters how? > > There is documentation Zimmerman has a temper and a tendency to snap, I am sure Martin’s Defense team could have made a compelling argument that it may have happened in this case. The direction (from behind) only details “how” Martin approached Zimmerman. And there are documents and video’s concerning Martin’s multiple suspensions and street fighting technique. You can’t discuss the character of one participant without allowing the discussion of the other participant’s character, assuming both participants had survived the encounter. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/796 "2012-06-20T16:17:11Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The direction (from behind) only details “how” Martin approached Zimmerman. > > And there are documents and video’s concerning Martin’s multiple suspensions and street fighting technique. You can’t discuss the character of one participant without allowing the discussion of the other participant’s character, assuming both participants had survived the encounter. Yes…yes you can, In each case the charge would have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. You are providing a false dichotomy. And if both survived you wouldn’t have a homicide case which would change things a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/797 "2012-06-20T16:43:37Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why not? Are you saying juries can’t use their subjective opinion and common sense to decide whether Zimmerman’s behavior that night would have caused a reasonable person to be in fear for their safety? Yes, that’s what I am saying. In Florida, the jury can’t rely on inference like that: > [@](#): > > Florida law is well settled that the elements of an offense cannot be established by mere inference. Quoting State v Dye, 346 So. 2d 538, 541 (Fla 1977) > [@](#): > > If this is allowable for a jury, then you can’t say “following someone around like a creeper, on a dark rainy night, despite Martin’s attempts to get away” is insufficient information. Not unless you’re speaking for a jury that doesn’t even exist yet. It’s not allowable for any Florida jury. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/798 "2012-06-20T16:45:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not if that “documentation” is inadmissible. Hold on – it might be admissible in a trial of Martin, depending on how that trial unfolded. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/799 "2012-06-20T17:02:12Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > To clarify the case you cited had an individual who was cought breaking into the defendants car, note the Forcible felony list from earlier > > So once again, how did this apply in the Zimmerman case? Ok. Here’s a case where, like this one, only the shooter’s testimony [establishes the crime:](http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-09-12/news/fl-boat-shooting-defense-20110912_1_murder-charges-michael-monahan-controversial-state-law) > [@](#): > > On Sept. 6, Palm Beach County Judge Richard Oftedal ruled that Monahan, 65, was justified in shooting Raymond Mohlman and Matthew Vittum under the “Stand Your Ground” law, which gives people the right to shoot if they feel their lives are in danger. > > Mohlman and Vittum, who were intoxicated, cornered the disabled veteran in the cabin of his 35-foot sailboat during an argument near Phil Foster Park, according to court records. > > “[Monahan] was within his rights to resist their criminal conduct with deadly force,” Oftedal wrote in his ruling. Note that the “criminal conduct” is established by Monagan’s claims, just as it would be in the instant case by Zimmerman’s claim. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/800 "2012-06-20T17:11:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, that’s what I am saying. In Florida, the jury can’t rely on inference like that: So if “mere” inference isn’t allowed, what evidence would objectively prove reasonable fear of safety and thus preclude the need for any inference whatsoever? It would be impossible to create an exhaustive list of all the kind of situations and circumstances that would constitute this, so I’m curious to how you’ll answer this question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=41)