# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/901 "2012-06-24T00:38:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Why was Zimmerman upset that he had given his apartment number when he didn’t know where Zimmerman was? don’t know. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > As cited above it is both common knowledge and common advice that you DON’T go home when being followed. Martin stated he WAS home. He had also lost sight of Zimmerman who was at the other end of the street so he wasn’t being chased. All he had to do was open the door to his house and enjoy his skittles and ice tea and watch it rain from the comfort of his home. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Hiding out until you know you lost him is 100% consistent with being afraid of someone following you. So why did he travel back down the sidewalk toward Zimmerman? That’s not consistent with being afraid. That’s consistent with wanting to start something. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/902 "2012-06-24T00:40:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > don’t know. > > Martin stated he WAS home. He had also lost sight of Zimmerman who was at the other end of the street so he wasn’t being chased. All he had to do was open the door to his house and enjoy his skittles and ice tea and watch it rain from the comfort of his home. > > So why did he travel back down the sidewalk toward Zimmerman? That’s not consistent with being afraid. That’s consistent with wanting to start something. Cite where there is proof Martin said he was in his fathers girlfriend’s apartment? You keep making this claim, I see nothing in the court record that has been released so far. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/903 "2012-06-24T00:41:56Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > [If you are being followed, do not go home](http://www.kent.edu/housing/parentsguide/keepingsafe.cfm) > > [If you think you are being followed, do not go home.](http://www.sugarlandtx.gov/police/services/crime_prevention/tips/personal_robbery_prevention_tips.asp) > > [If you think you are being followed, do not go home.](http://www.creighton.edu/admin/publicsafety/cusafe/education/sexualassaultprevention/index.php) > > [… If you are being followed, do not go home,](http://bc.rcmp.ca/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=506&languageId=1&contentId=1142) > As you can see it seems quite absurd to claim that someone should go home if they think they are being followed, it seems to be against the advice of almost every group imaginable. All the links you quoted are saying you should go to open well lite populated place such as a police station. Thinking that they supports Martin hiding in the bushes is truly brain dead. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/904 "2012-06-24T00:43:48Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Well it is great that you can armchair quarterback that…but he was under no legal obligation to do so. Deedee says he “lost him” that does not mean he thought Zimmerman wouldn’t see him if it tried to go home. Except that he stated he was already there. In the meantime he has the ability to hear Zimmerman talking to the police. He knows where Zimmerman is. And while he has no obligation to go home it’s common sense not to engage someone that you say he is afraid of. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Plus Deedee’s statements are hearsay and while they are information they are not usable to meet the legal standard to disprove the right of Trayvon to stand his ground. Sure it’s hearsay. It’s also all we have to go on. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/905 "2012-06-24T00:44:31Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > All the links you quoted are saying you should go to open well lite populated place such as a police station. Thinking that they supports Martin hiding in the bushes is truly brain dead. so why was Martin required to do everything right and Zimmerman is allowed to chase down a man he thinks is armed in the dark with impunity? Your logic is wrong, those cites proved that going home was a good idea, not calling the police does not remove Martins right to self defense ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/906 "2012-06-24T00:49:08Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It is a cheap inside the pants nylon holster, most likely Galati. If you can show me one of this type of any brand that has internal retention device that you can not see from the outside? Almost all of them of this construction would have a retention strap which this one obviously does not have, we have pictures to show that. The metal retention clip is on the other side of the holster. [Zimmerman’s Gun and Holster](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120518121835-zimmerman-gun-horizontal-gallery.jpg) [Zimmerman’s Holster - Left Side](http://www.wtsp.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/255685/DSCN0256.jpg) [Zimmerman’s Holster - Right Side with Metal Retaining Clip](http://www.wtsp.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/255685/DSCN0255.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/907 "2012-06-24T00:49:47Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Well it is great that you can armchair quarterback that…but he was under no legal obligation to do so. Deedee says he “lost him” that does not mean he thought Zimmerman wouldn’t see him if it tried to go home. > > Plus Deedee’s statements are hearsay and while they are information they are not usable to meet the legal standard to disprove the right of Trayvon to stand his ground. Basically you want to use Deedee statement when it agrees with you theory, but it is hearsay when it doesn’t? If you throw out Deedee statement, then you have no support for your scenario at all. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/908 "2012-06-24T00:51:48Z")
Here is a quote from Deedee’s statement > [@](#): > > GIRLFRIEND: I said, ‘Keep running.’ He said he ain’t gonna run. 'Cause he said he is right by his father’s house. And then in a couple minutes he said the man is following him again. He’s behind him. I said, ‘Run!’ He said he was not going to run. I knew he was not going to run because he was out of breath. And then he was getting excited, > the guy’s getting close to him. I told him, ‘Run!’ And I told him, ‘Keep running!’ He not going to run. I tell him, ‘Why are you not running?’ He said ’I’m not gonna.’ He was tired. I know he was tired. > > PROSECUTOR: I am sorry, Trayvon said he was not running because—-he’s not going to run he said because you could tell he was tired? How could you tell he was tired? > > GIRLFRIEND: He was breathing hard. > > PROSECUTOR: Real hard? > > GIRLFRIEND: Real hard. And then he told me this guy was getting close! He told me the guy was getting real close to him. And the next I hear is, ‘Why are you following me for?’ "Cause he said he is right by his father’s house. " is why he said he wasn’t going to run, we don’t know if he was AT his fathers house or if he didn’t want to run because he didn’t want to lead Zimmerman to his fathers house. “right by” may be on the same block, at the front door or where ever but it also sounds like Zimmerman was still trying to follow Martin and getting closer, this does not fit with the claim that Martin went back to chase him. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/909 "2012-06-24T00:52:48Z")
> [@newme](#): > > The metal retention clip is on the other side of the holster. > > [Zimmerman’s Gun and Holster](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120518121835-zimmerman-gun-horizontal-gallery.jpg) > > [Zimmerman’s Holster - Left Side](http://www.wtsp.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/255685/DSCN0256.jpg) > > [Zimmerman’s Holster - Right Side with Metal Retaining Clip](http://www.wtsp.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/255685/DSCN0255.jpg) That is a belt clip, it is not a retention device to keep the firearm in the holster. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/910 "2012-06-24T00:54:55Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Basically you want to use Deedee statement when it agrees with you theory, but it is hearsay when it doesn’t? If you throw out Deedee statement, then you have no support for your scenario at all. Umm…the burden of proof is on you sir, and I was not the one that originally used her statements as evidence. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/911 "2012-06-24T00:56:11Z")
oops dupe ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/912 "2012-06-24T00:56:57Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > so why was Martin required to do everything right and Zimmerman is allowed to chase down a man he thinks is armed in the dark with impunity? Cite that Zimmerman chased him down in the dark. At best we know he got out of his car and tried to keep him in sight. He did this while on the phone to the police. He’s on record as agreeing to meet the police back at his car. The fight occurred near the crosswalk he said he was on in the video and that leads directly to his car. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Your logic is wrong, those cites proved that going home was a good idea, not calling the police does not remove Martins right to self defense the only right thing Martin was required to do is not attack Zimmerman. All the posts regarding what he should have done were to address the argument that he was afraid of Zimmerman. If he was afraid of Zimmerman then he was already out of sight and next to his house. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/913 "2012-06-24T01:03:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Cite that Zimmerman chased him down in the dark. At best we know he got out of his car and tried to keep him in sight. He did this while on the phone to the police. He’s on record as agreeing to meet the police back at his car. The fight occurred near the crosswalk he said he was on in the video and that leads directly to his car. > > the only right thing Martin was required to do is not attack Zimmerman. All the posts regarding what he should have done were to address the argument that he was afraid of Zimmerman. If he was afraid of Zimmerman then he was already out of sight and next to his house. Only if you cherry-pick Deedee’s statements as you did, it was quite clear by her statements to police that according to her he found Martin again and gained ground. Martin was fully legally justified in confronting Zimmerman and through his actions would probably be able to show by the preponderance of the evidence that he feared for his safety and was justified in using force. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/914 "2012-06-24T01:16:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Here is a quote from Deedee’s statement > > "Cause he said he is right by his father’s house. " is why he said he wasn’t going to run, we don’t know if he was AT his fathers house or if he didn’t want to run because he didn’t want to lead Zimmerman to his fathers house. > > “right by” may be on the same block, at the front door or where ever but it also sounds like Zimmerman was still trying to follow Martin and getting closer, this does not fit with the claim that Martin went back to chase him. You have a remarkable ability to ignore the 2 minutes between “right by his father’s house” and “the man’s following him again”. He goes from point A to point B and then confronts Zimmerman. And it all comes down to the conversation which bore no threat. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/915 "2012-06-24T01:23:02Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > so why was Martin required to do everything right and Zimmerman is allowed to chase down a man he thinks is armed in the dark with impunity? > > Your logic is wrong, those cites proved that going home was a good idea, not calling the police does not remove Martins right to self defense Because we aren’t assuming that Zimmerman was chasing Martin? We assume he was walking across the T to get a house and then walking back to his truck. Every link you gave said that you should stay away from dark places, not hide in them. The problem is that even if you ignore Zimmerman statement, we have nothing indicating Martin was engaged in self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/916 "2012-06-24T01:27:07Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Cite where there is proof Martin said he was in his fathers girlfriend’s apartment? > > You keep making this claim, I see nothing in the court record that has been released so far. He told his girlfriend that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/917 "2012-06-24T01:29:20Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Only if you cherry-pick Deedee’s statements as you did, it was quite clear by her statements to police that according to her he found Martin again and gained ground. > > Martin was fully legally justified in confronting Zimmerman and through his actions would probably be able to show by the preponderance of the evidence that he feared for his safety and was justified in using force. I didn’t cherry pick anything. One is a statement made BY Martin, the other is her opinion that heavy breathing equals fear. It’s like her statement that she heard grass. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/918 "2012-06-24T01:51:50Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Because we aren’t assuming that Zimmerman was chasing Martin? We assume he was walking across the T to get a house and then walking back to his truck. > > Every link you gave said that you should stay away from dark places, not hide in them. The problem is that even if you ignore Zimmerman statement, we have nothing indicating Martin was engaged in self-defense. Zimmerman’s testimony doesn’t fit with the 911 so I don’t know how we can trust it in this case but lets look at the call, here is part of the timeline. [ > [@](#): > > 7:11:33 — Zimmerman tells the police dispatcher that Trayvon Martin is running. > 7:11:59 — Zimmerman states that he (left his car and) is following Trayvon Martin. > 7:12:00 — Dispatcher states, “OK, we don’t need you to do that” [follow Martin]. > 7:12:02 — Zimmerman says “OK,” after which sounds of him either running or quickly walking stop. > 7:12:00 - 7:12:59 — The girl calls Martin again at some point during this minute.[7] > 7:13:10 — Zimmerman states he cannot see and does not know where Trayvon Martin is located. > 7:13:41 — Zimmerman’s call to Sanford police ends.[7] > 7:16:00 - 7:16:59 — Martin’s call from the girl goes dead during this minute.[8][7] > 7:16:11 — First 911 call from witness about a fight, calls for help heard.[9] > 7:16:55 — Shot fired on 911 call [at location of body].[10] ]([Timeline of the killing of Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin)) We are talking about less than two min from when Zimmerman lost sight of Martin and hung up and the fighting started. If you to accept Deedee’s account where Trayvon says he is getting closer that does fit in better with the idea that he was hiding near the T, note that Zimmerman’s car keys were attached to a flashlight that was still on by the time the evidence was collected, I see no reason to believe that both the T and Z sides could be mostly true, if you want to know what I think vs. what i’m trying to argue from the standpoint of the premise of this thread here it is. This is a guess and I do not claim it is exactly how it happened but I think it is closer than the other options that have been presented. Z could have been “returning to his truck” while scanning around with his flashlight and M could have been hiding and assume Z was coming back to get him. I think that Z would have been looking around for his lost prey at least by just a casual look around as he waited for the police to show up. In Deedee’s call Martin was breathing heavy which would fit with him having run as Zimmerman saw before he left his truck. He could have been hiding and on the phone with his girlfriend, she told him to run, he said no he wouldn’t run but we don’t know if he was walking or not. Trayvon sees Z and thinking he is being chased again confronts Zimmerman and they push around and puff their chests a bit as males do when they want to assert their manliness yet aren’t looking to fight to the death. According to his testimony Zimmerman starts to reach into his pocket to get his cellphone. It is quite possible Trayvon fears he is grabbing a weapon and punches Zimmerman who falls and hits his head on the way down. Trayvon gets on top of Zimmerman and while not hitting him does shake him around quite a bit. Zimmerman trying to escape tries to scoot down, exposes his weapon and out of retention fears pulls and shoots. As I said this just fist better in my mind but I’d never claim it is the truth. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/919 "2012-06-24T01:54:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I didn’t cherry pick anything. One is a statement made BY Martin, the other is her opinion that heavy breathing equals fear. It’s like her statement that she heard grass. The statement that you ignored that was BY Martin(1) is that Zimmerman had found him again and was gaining ground. 1 (according to Deedee) ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/920 "2012-06-24T02:01:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He told his girlfriend that. Oh come on I have the exact quote from her police statement, you are just trying to pass this discredited claim off as evidence because your claim hinges on it. > [@](#): > > I said, ‘Keep running.’ He said he ain’t gonna run. 'Cause he said he is right by his father’s house. And then in a couple minutes he said the man is following him again. He is not a cold blooded killer on a revenge mission as you are trying to paint him, he is a kid who made some mistakes in dealing with an adult who is escalating a situation at every turn. I am sure both of them thought they were in the right but Zimmerman had many more chances to deescalate this thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=47)