# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/921 "2012-06-24T02:13:09Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Zimmerman’s testimony doesn’t fit with the 911 so I don’t know how we can trust it in this case but lets look at the call, here is part of the timeline. > [URL=“[Timeline of the killing of Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin)”] > > We are talking about less than two min from when Zimmerman lost sight of Martin and hung up and the fighting started. > > If you to accept Deedee’s account where Trayvon says he is getting closer that does fit in better with the idea that he was hiding near the T, note that Zimmerman’s car keys were attached to a flashlight that was still on by the time the evidence was collected, > > I see no reason to believe that both the T and Z sides could be mostly true, if you want to know what I think vs. what i’m trying to argue from the standpoint of the premise of this thread here it is. > > This is a guess and I do not claim it is exactly how it happened but I think it is closer than the other options that have been presented. > > Z could have been “returning to his truck” while scanning around with his flashlight and M could have been hiding and assume Z was coming back to get him. I think that Z would have been looking around for his lost prey at least by just a casual look around as he waited for the police to show up. > > In Deedee’s call Martin was breathing heavy which would fit with him having run as Zimmerman saw before he left his truck. > > He could have been hiding and on the phone with his girlfriend, she told him to run, he said no he wouldn’t run but we don’t know if he was walking or not. > > Trayvon sees Z and thinking he is being chased again confronts Zimmerman and they push around and puff their chests a bit as males do when they want to assert their manliness yet aren’t looking to fight to the death. > > According to his testimony Zimmerman starts to reach into his pocket to get his cellphone. It is quite possible Trayvon fears he is grabbing a weapon and punches Zimmerman who falls and hits his head on the way down. > > Trayvon gets on top of Zimmerman and while not hitting him does shake him around quite a bit. > > Zimmerman trying to escape tries to scoot down, exposes his weapon and out of retention fears pulls and shoots. > > As I said this just fist better in my mind but I’d never claim it is the truth. The short distance involved plus the elapsed time wouldn’t stress out a teenager unless Martin has health issues as yet unreported. The second thing is the phone mistaken for a gun. You can throw it out as a what-if but there’s no evidence that it happened. The only evidence is Zimmerman and Martin exchanged words and what the girlfriend relayed is consistent with Zimmerman’s account. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/922 "2012-06-24T02:37:30Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Oh come on I have the exact quote from her police statement, you are just trying to pass this discredited claim off as evidence because your claim hinges on it. > He is not a cold blooded killer on a revenge mission as you are trying to paint him, he is a kid who made some mistakes in dealing with an adult who is escalating a situation at every turn. I never said he was a cold blooded killer on a revenge mission. You really need to dial back the vitriol. Beating someone is a rather big mistake to make. As it has been described, it was done with a fair amount of rage. That’s not a cold blooded revenge killing. It’s rage. And I’m not painting him with it. I described what others saw. He painted himself when he did it. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I am sure both of them thought they were in the right but Zimmerman had many more chances to deescalate this thing. All he did was get out of his car and look for a suspicious person. No threats were made and no assault’s were made as of this writing. Based on the 911 phone call there is no indication that Martin was being chased down. The closest thing to escalation was a rude question to a question. It would have been better if Zimmerman explained himself. But if you want to throw out what if’s I’ll suggest that telling Martin the police were en-route to check him out might not have made much of a difference if this was about feeling he was being insulted by a challenge of his right to be there. As I said before, I’ve been there, it’s off-putting to be challenged within eyesight of your own house. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/923 "2012-06-24T02:38:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The short distance involved plus the elapsed time wouldn’t stress out a teenager unless Martin has health issues as yet unreported. > > The second thing is the phone mistaken for a gun. You can throw it out as a what-if but there’s no evidence that it happened. The only evidence is Zimmerman and Martin exchanged words and what the girlfriend relayed is consistent with Zimmerman’s account. Or he was in fear and the fight or flight response cause an acceleration of heart and lung action With which Zimmerman account? He offered multiple versions and I don’t remember any of them being “why are you following me?” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/924 "2012-06-24T02:51:03Z")
Question to all those who have participated in this thread: You have a time machine. You can go back to that night and prevent the tragedy by warning the players involved about the consequences of their actions. The only hitch is that you only have enough time to talk to one person. Which one do you talk to and what would you tell them? Why? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/925 "2012-06-24T02:52:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > All he did was get out of his car and look for a suspicious person. No threats were made and no assault’s were made as of this writing. Based on the 911 phone call there is no indication that Martin was being chased down. The closest thing to escalation was a rude question to a question. It would have been better if Zimmerman explained himself. But if you want to throw out what if’s I’ll suggest that telling Martin the police were en-route to check him out might not have made much of a difference if this was about feeling he was being insulted by a challenge of his right to be there. As I said before, I’ve been there, it’s off-putting to be challenged within eyesight of your own house. Get out of his car and run after someone who he had leapfrogged a couple of times and watched as they walked by. He also claims to have made eye contact with martin and claims that Martin had threatened him with something that may have been a gun, and that the kid “must be on drugs” yet “all he did is get out of his car and look for a suspicious person” when he ran after him? We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one but: > [@](#): > > 911 dispatcher: Are you following him? [2:24] > Zimmerman: Yeah. [2:25] > 911 dispatcher: OK. We don’t need you to do that. [2:26] He was chasing him, he admited right there but maybe you don’t know that “to chase” == “to follow” [http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Chase](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Chase) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/926 "2012-06-24T02:58:55Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Or he was in fear and the fight or flight response cause an acceleration of heart and lung action > > With which Zimmerman account? He offered multiple versions and I don’t remember any of them being “why are you following me?” Zimmerman said Martin initiated the exchange. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/927 "2012-06-24T03:10:11Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > He was chasing him, he admited right there but maybe you don’t know that “to chase” == “to follow” chase: Pursue in order to catch or catch up with An act of pursuing someone or something. to pursue in order to seize, overtake, etc. To chase means to follow quickly, pursue or run after Zimmerman did not indicate his intentions beyond meeting with and directing the police. You can tell by the 911 conversation he isn’t chasing Martin. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/928 "2012-06-24T03:17:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Zimmerman said Martin initiated the exchange. Did he say that he was following Martin again and closing ground? The fact that Martin said the first word after being chased for several minutes doesn’t mean they stories match each other. Zimmerman claims in one that he said “Do you have a problem” and before he can respond Martin answers back “Well, you do now.” How does that match “are you following me?” and “why are you here?” Note how Zimmerman make it a non dialog, trying to paint Martin as acting in cold blood? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/929 "2012-06-24T03:40:29Z")
This whole notion that Martin tired himself out trying to outrun Zimmerman is so absurd it’s laughable. I’m 10 pounds overweight and not in peak physical shape. I could still outrun Zimmerman, take a smoke break, and keep outrunning him. A 17 year old kid? He could have run circles around him. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/930 "2012-06-24T03:45:37Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > This whole notion that Martin tired himself out trying to outrun Zimmerman is so absurd it’s laughable. I’m 10 pounds overweight and not in peak physical shape. I could still outrun Zimmerman, take a smoke break, and keep outrunning him. > > A 17 year old kid? He could have run circles around him. Who claimed Martin couldn’t outrun Zimmerman? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/931 "2012-06-24T03:50:39Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Who claimed Martin couldn’t outrun Zimmerman? Maybe I’m misinterpreting his girlfriend’s statements to the prosecutor. She said to run but she knew he couldn’t because he was “breathing hard.” ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/932 "2012-06-24T03:54:14Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Maybe I’m misinterpreting his girlfriend’s statements to the prosecutor. She said to run but she knew he couldn’t because he was “breathing hard.” No, he said he wouldn’t because he was by his fathers girlfriends. we don’t have any information except for that, he may have been hiding, he may have been running around the block heck he could have been juggling fire sticks. all we know is that he bumped into Zimmerman and Zimmerman was getting closer, I tend to think he was hiding but we may never know. That would explain why Zimmerman at first claimed that Martin “jumped out from the bushes” [http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/crime-scene-91-zimmerman-suv.jpg](http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/crime-scene-91-zimmerman-suv.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/933 "2012-06-24T03:57:45Z")
Here is a picture that shows where the shooting was, note the “bushes” [http://www.craigboyce.com/w/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Trayvon-Martin\_George-Zimmerman\_Crime-Scene-Photos\_038.jpg](http://www.craigboyce.com/w/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Trayvon-Martin_George-Zimmerman_Crime-Scene-Photos_038.jpg) And note how far it is, if someone was following you from the previous photo you may want to find a place to hide then run the entire length down to Martin’s Father’s Girlfriend"s place. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/934 "2012-06-24T03:59:59Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Here is a picture that shows where the shooting was, note the “bushes” Do you have a picture of it on a dark and rainy night? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/935 "2012-06-24T04:11:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I didn’t say Zimmerman claimed he jumped the fence. I said it was likely given his location coming back from the 7-Eleven. According to Zimmerman he was standing in the front yard of the house looking around. > > I never said he wasn’t legally allowed to be in any of the common areas of the complex. I pointed out that he had to travel back toward the person you claim was a threat to him based on where he said he was on the phone. [Note he may have just cut through, there is no fence around parts of this “gated community”](http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Oregon+Avenue,+Sanford,+Florida&hl=en&ll=28.793754,-81.332302&spn=0.003357,0.006276&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.310476,102.832031&oq=oregon+av+florida&hnear=Oregon+Ave,+Sanford,+Seminole,+Florida+32771&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=28.793754,-81.332196&panoid=sxG0uaKe4uTp-lxBZEgKUQ&cbp=12,162.68,,0,12.65) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/936 "2012-06-24T04:12:40Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Here is a picture that shows where the shooting was, note the “bushes” > > [http://www.craigboyce.com/w/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Trayvon-Martin\_George-Zimmerman\_Crime-Scene-Photos\_038.jpg](http://www.craigboyce.com/w/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Trayvon-Martin_George-Zimmerman_Crime-Scene-Photos_038.jpg) > > And note how far it is, if someone was following you from the previous photo you may want to find a place to hide then run the entire length down to Martin’s Father’s Girlfriend"s place. I see a patio divider at every condo along with bushes. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/937 "2012-06-24T04:13:06Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Do you have a picture of it on a dark and rainy night? No, seeing has he was living there I am sure he knew it was more than 500’ but remember in this thread I just have to match “the preponderance of evidence” standard and you must meet “beyond a shadow of a doubt” if you are arguing he didn’t have a right to self defense. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/938 "2012-06-24T04:15:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I see a patio divider at every condo along with bushes. What’s your point? It fits what Zimmerman told the police how it began when Martin “jumped out from the bushes” More than Martin running 1/4 of a mile round trip to come back and attack Zimmerman as you claimed. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/939 "2012-06-24T04:15:59Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > [Note he may have just cut through, there is no fence around parts of this “gated community”](http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Oregon+Avenue,+Sanford,+Florida&hl=en&ll=28.793754,-81.332302&spn=0.003357,0.006276&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.310476,102.832031&oq=oregon+av+florida&hnear=Oregon+Ave,+Sanford,+Seminole,+Florida+32771&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=28.793754,-81.332196&panoid=sxG0uaKe4uTp-lxBZEgKUQ&cbp=12,162.68,,0,12.65) It’s a new housing development and that’s an old picture. You can see the fence posts. Again, what’s your point. It’s not a high brick wall along the street side. Logically, he cut through the condo property at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/940 "2012-06-24T04:18:15Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It fits what Zimmerman told the police how it began when Martin “jumped out from the bushes” > > More than Martin running 1/4 of a mile round trip to come back and attack Zimmerman as you claimed. again, what’s your point? We know Martin started the conversation and a fight broke out soon after. And where on earth do you come up with 1/4 mile. It’s 300 feet from his house. And we know based on the conversation he didn’t run the whole way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=48)