# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/941 "2012-06-24T04:19:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s a new housing development and that’s an old picture. You can see the fence posts. Again, what’s your point. It’s not a high brick wall along the street side. Logically, he cut through the condo property at this point. those are trellises not fence posts and they have been there for a long time. It is a natural shortcut and not some “he climbed over the wall” entrance like you claimed. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/942 "2012-06-24T04:20:33Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > He was chasing him, he admited right there but maybe you don’t know that “to chase” == “to follow” > > [http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Chase](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Chase) As usual you are being selective in your choice of information. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > Dispatcher > > Yeah we’ve got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.\*\* > > Zimmerman > > Okay. These (expletive) they always get away. Yep. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse. > > Dispatcher > > So it’s on the lefthand side from the clubhouse? > > Zimmerman > > No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left, uh, you go straight in, don’t turn, and make a left. (expletive) he’s running. > > Dispatcher > > He’s running? Which way is he running? > > Ambient sounds are heard which may be Zimmerman unbuckling his seat belt and his vehicle’s “open door” chime sounding. The change in his voice and the sound of wind against his cell phone mic indicate that he has left his vehicle and is now walking. The dispatcher seems to pick up on these changes and sounds concerned when he later asks Zimmerman if he is following Martin. > Zimmerman > > Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. > > Dispatcher > > Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards? > > Zimmerman > > The back entrance…(expletive)(unclear) > > This section of the recording has been the subject of much speculation. Some suggest that Zimmerman has just made a racial slur, but the audio is not clear. > > Dispatcher > > Are you following him? > > Zimmerman > > Yeah. > > Dispatcher > > Ok, we don’t need you to do that. > > Zimmerman > > Ok. Zimmerman got out of his truck and followed Martin because he thought the dispatcher was telling him to do that . The dispatcher realized his mistake and corrected himself and Zimmerman stopped following him. When he lost visual contact with Zimmerman he got out and tried to reacquire him. He never said he was following Martin. He just didn’t correct the Dispatcher with a more accurate term. Zimmerman never turned South on the T and actually followed Martin. When you are trying to see somebody, that doesn’t mean you are trying to catch them. Chasing means you are trying to catch somebody, which Zimmerman wasn’t ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/943 "2012-06-24T04:27:07Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > As usual you are being selective in your choice of information. > Zimmerman got out of his truck and followed Martin because he thought the dispatcher was telling him to do that . The dispatcher realized his mistake and corrected himself and Zimmerman stopped following him. When he lost visual contact with Zimmerman he got out and tried to reacquire him. He never said he was following Martin. He just didn’t correct the Dispatcher with a more accurate term. Zimmerman never turned South on the T and actually followed Martin. > > When you are trying to see somebody, that doesn’t mean you are trying to catch them. Chasing means you are trying to catch somebody, which Zimmerman wasn’t Why did he lie about his intentions in his written and interview statements if he was following dispatches command? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/944 "2012-06-24T04:30:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > again, what’s your point? We know Martin started the conversation and a fight broke out soon after. And where on earth do you come up with 1/4 mile. It’s 300 feet from his house. And we know based on the conversation he didn’t run the whole way. It is over 600 feet from the dog waste bin if you measure on google maps, ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/945 "2012-06-24T04:37:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > those are trellises not fence posts and they have been there for a long time. It is a natural shortcut and not some “he climbed over the wall” entrance like you claimed. It’s a gated community. you can see the wall all the way around it. we agree he cut through at this point. Beyond the fact that he was standing on someone’s property and it looked suspicious to Zimmerman, what possible point can you be making? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/946 "2012-06-24T04:43:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s a gated community. you can see the wall all the way around it. we agree he cut through at this point. Beyond the fact that he was standing on someone’s property and it looked suspicious to Zimmerman, what possible point can you be making? No, there is a wall on the arterial roads, there is some fence and some non fenced areas around the rest of the property. Zimmerman didn’t see him cut through though, I was just proving your prior claim was false. And it was false. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/947 "2012-06-24T05:00:22Z")
Does anyone know what model cell phones Martin and Zimmerman were using? It’s VERY possible that the prosecution could have geospatial data (date and timestamped) collected from those phones which contradicts Zimmerman’s account of each persons movements. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/948 "2012-06-24T05:03:54Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Why did he lie about his intentions in his written and interview statements if he was following dispatches command? Because he doesn’t have an Eidetic memory? He was obviously confused by trying to answer all the questions from the dispatcher. I doubt you would do as well under similar circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/949 "2012-06-24T05:19:03Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Because he doesn’t have an Eidetic memory? He was obviously confused by trying to answer all the questions from the dispatcher. I doubt you would do as well under similar circumstances. So you admit his testimony is not reliable? If he can not remember or fabricates reasons for the fact that he left his car in order to follow Martin how can we use it as evidence Martin did not have a right to self defense? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/950 "2012-06-24T06:43:51Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It is a cheap inside the pants nylon holster, most likely Galati. If you can show me one of this type of any brand that has internal retention device that you can not see from the outside? Almost all of them of this construction would have a retention strap which this one obviously does not have, we have pictures to show that. > > It would be odd to put a padded nylon cover on a formed plastic IWB holster as all it would do is add thickness but go ahead and prove me wrong. Speculation about the various types of holsters that are available, while interesting, doesn’t say anything about the specific holster Zimmerman was using. You speculated that, while running, Zimmerman would have had to physically prevent Zimmerman’s weapon from sliding out of Zimmerman’s holster. If we knew the model of Zimmerman’s holster, we would know if it had any special design features. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/951 "2012-06-24T06:58:11Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So you admit his testimony is not reliable? > > If he can not remember or fabricates reasons for the fact that he left his car in order to follow Martin how can we use it as evidence Martin did not have a right to self defense? Martin had a right to self defense. It appears that Martin left Zimmerman’s line of sight for several minutes. Martin then approached Zimmerman. Not exactly the actions of someone who was afraid. Could Martin expect a jury to believe that he was so afraid of being mugged, robbed, or murdered that he decided to approach a complete stranger who didn’t know where Martin was, ask the stranger what he was doing in the area, and then attempt to kill the stranger for asking the same questions Martin was asking? If Zimmerman hadn’t cried out to his neighbors for help, would anyone have witnessed any part of this event to back up Martin’s story of why he felt he had to kill Zimmerman? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/952 "2012-06-24T07:07:55Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Here is a picture that shows where the shooting was, note the “bushes” > > …And note how far it is, if someone was following you from the previous photo you \*\*may want to find a place to hide \*\*then run the entire length down to Martin’s Father’s Girlfriend"s place. Or actually run home. Or run past his home. Or run to a neighbors for help. Or bang on as many windows and doors as possible asking them for help or hoping they’ll call the police. Or he could have call 9-1-1 himself. Or he could have shouted for help. Martin had lot of choices. What Martin did do was approach Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/953 "2012-06-24T07:13:40Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > No, seeing has he was living there I am sure he knew it was more than 500’ but remember **in this thread** I just have to match “the preponderance of evidence” standard and you must meet “beyond a shadow of a doubt” if you are arguing he didn’t have a right to self defense. Who is supposed to represent the jury in this threads make-believe scenerio? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/954 "2012-06-24T12:54:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > No, there is a wall on the arterial roads, there is some fence and some non fenced areas around the rest of the property. > > Zimmerman didn’t see him cut through though, I was just proving your prior claim was false. > > And it was false. I never said Zimmerman saw him cut through. He saw him trespassing in front of the house. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/955 "2012-06-24T14:19:51Z")
For the people who believe every word of Zimmerman’s story, I’ve got a bridge _and_ some oceanfront property to sell you. Low rates, baby. Easy financing. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/956 "2012-06-24T15:00:14Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > For the people who believe every word of Zimmerman’s story, I’ve got a bridge _and_ some oceanfront property to sell you. Low rates, baby. Easy financing. Who has said they believe every word of Zimmerman’s story? I’m sure that he has forgotten and/or embellished some details but the more information that comes out leads me to believe that he was in the right. If the state keeps releasing more “evidence” against him, I might actually donate some money to his defense fund if it won’t increase his bond or get his wife arrested. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/957 "2012-06-24T15:47:30Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > For the people who believe every word of Zimmerman’s story, I’ve got a bridge _and_ some oceanfront property to sell you. Low rates, baby. Easy financing. Does it have a nice view? I’ve always wanted an oceanfront bridge with a nice view. I don’t believe anyone believes every word of Zimmerman’s story. It doesn’t appear that anyone is reading from a script. I notice that some of the eyewitness stories have changed from their original statements to the Sanford PD to their latest statements to the State Police investigators. The blond lady that kept publically insisting that the police were ignoring her statement still says that she didn’t see anyone approach anyone, didn’t see the 2nd confrontation, didn’t see anyone hitting anyone, and didn’t see the shot being fired but insists that Zimmerman is guilty because she saw Zimmerman standing next to Martin’s body. She’ll make a fine witness for the prosecution. 😉 The SA still has to convince a judge or jury that their version of what happened is what actually happened or is most likely what happened. AND Corey has to prove 2nd degree murder. Not manslaughter. She didn’t charge Zimmerman with manslaughter. (She can always change the charges up to the point jury selection begins or the first witness is sworn in.) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/958 "2012-06-24T15:58:11Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It is over 600 feet from the dog waste bin if you measure on google maps, I just checked it in Google Earth and came up with 327 feet. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/959 "2012-06-24T16:04:01Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I just checked it in Google Earth and came up with 327 feet. Neither of you is likely to be correct, if you are measuring on a map you need use an equidistant projection. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/960 "2012-06-24T16:19:02Z")
Quick question: When the judge “revoked” his bond, does that mean that Zimmerman’s loses his $150k or is it revoked in the sense that “turn yourself in, we give the money back” status quo ante situation? I know that if you don’t show for trial, you forfeit your money, but is it the same thing on a bond revocation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=49)