# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1001 "2012-06-25T01:51:48Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What did Zimmerman say he was doing with his hands during this viscous attack on his head and face? > > The Internet gallery has insisted his hands and arms had been been pinned down by Martin. But I don’t recall ever Zimmerman making this claim in either his written statement or his reenactment. Nothing about Martin sitting on his chest, either. All of this was whipped up apparently by folks trying their best to create a narrative for how Z could have been beaten the way he was without getting at least one lick in. But it’s not the narrative that Zimmerman gave, unfortunately. > > What grown man doesn’t even lift a finger to stop someone else from smothering him? Martin had no defensive wounds on his body. You can’t possibly believe Z just laid there and let Martin go to town on him like a helpless rag doll. I’m not speaking for the Internet gallery. I’m not suggesting that Martin was trying to “smother” Zimmerman. Zimmerman said that Martin was trying to prevent Zimmerman from crying out to his neighbors for help. Did the Internet gallery suggest that Zimmerman’s hands and arms were pinned down or that Zimmerman was pinned down? I believe you can “pin” someone to the ground by repeatedly punching them in the head and repeatedly banging their head on a concrete sidewalk. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1002 "2012-06-25T02:05:50Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I’m not speaking for the Internet gallery. > > I’m not suggesting that Martin was trying to “smother” Zimmerman. Zimmerman said that Martin was trying to prevent Zimmerman from crying out to his neighbors for help. > > Did the Internet gallery suggest that Zimmerman’s hands and arms were pinned down or that Zimmerman was pinned down? I believe you can “pin” someone to the ground by repeatedly punching them in the head and repeatedly banging their head on a concrete sidewalk. The meme was that Martin pinned down Z’s arms with his legs, preventing him from using them to protect himself until the very end. But again, Zimmerman never says this happen. If I’m not mistaken, in some interviews he said he used his arms to fend off blows. But if that was the case, he should have had some bruising on his hands and arms. He didn’t. And Martin had no defensive wounds. If Martin was beating Z so savagely that he even couldn’t defend himself with his arms, how in the hell was he able to have a coherent conversation with “John”? How would he even have been cognizant enough to even know John was there, while he was on the verge of losing consciousness? And we’re really supposed to believe that Martin would have not been startled by John’s sudden presence and lightened up his attack a little? It’s really quite peculiar how all these improbabilities came together on the night that Zimmerman shot Martin. ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1003 "2012-06-25T02:10:43Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yes there was, according to Z. A neighbor came out and Z supposedly told him “help me, help me” and the guy said he was gonna call 911, and Z said, “no, don’t do that. I need you to help me”. All while supposedly getting his head slammed by Martin. > > This witness would be “John” by the way. > [@Shodan](#): > > I was mistaken. However, do you have a cite for the first part, where Zimmerman said “no, don’t do that.” You put it in quotes, so I assume you mean he actually said it. > > You also alleged So you have claimed, twice, that Zimmerman said not to call 911. Do you stand by that? > > Regards, > Shodan At 12:15 in the [walkthrough](http://video.nytimes.com/video/2012/06/21/us/100000001620280/zimmerman-reenactment.html), Zimmerman says _during the fight_ that the following exchange occurred: > [@](#): > > He (_Witness John)_ said, “I’ll call 911.” > I said,“No! Help me! I need help!” ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1004 "2012-06-25T02:38:08Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Once again, there was multiple wounds to Zimmerman’s head. Bleeding wounds and a swollen face. > > If there were no wounds to Zimmerman’s head YOU could conclude that Martin was not attempting to kill Zimmerman. Um…you are the side that needs to prove he was trying to kill Zimmerman. The wounds are there but in NO way are they the type of wounds you would have if the fight had gone as he claims. A simple closed fracture of the nose and a couple of lacerations on the back of the head do not fit with repeatedly having someone slam your head into concrete. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1005 "2012-06-25T03:03:54Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > A simple closed fracture of the nose and a couple of lacerations on the back of the head do not fit with repeatedly having someone slam your head into concrete. You can back up with forensic evidence? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1006 "2012-06-25T03:37:08Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Guilty of what? Murder two or manslaughter? Whichever he’s actually tried for. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1007 "2012-06-25T03:39:04Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > You can back up with forensic evidence? It would have to be pretty incompetent head-slamming. Also, I’m unclear what Trayvon would supposedly have been gripping. Zimmerman’s hair isn’t long enough to grab, not even close. Gripping someone’s forehead is not the most effective way to do this, since the forehead doesn’t really have a good place to grab. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1008 "2012-06-25T03:42:35Z")
It’ll be interesting to see how many people buy Zimmerman’s version of events with it’s far-fetched tales(after Zimmerman shoots Martin, Martin saying “you got me”) that sound like something out of a bad movie. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1009 "2012-06-25T03:55:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’ll be interesting to see how many people buy Zimmerman’s version of events with it’s far-fetched tales(after Zimmerman shoots Martin, Martin saying “you got me”) that sound like something out of a bad movie. Yeah, only other gun nuts would be blinded by their Zimmerman-love to NOT see how utterly improbable that is. I’m starting to think the guy really is kind of dim. DIMmerman. Seriously, I question his intelligence. I’m guessing 85 IQ, and fairly serious impulse control problems. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1010 "2012-06-25T04:49:36Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Yeah, only other gun nuts would be blinded by their Zimmerman-love to NOT see how utterly improbable that is. > > I’m starting to think the guy really is kind of dim. DIMmerman. > > Seriously, I question his intelligence. I’m guessing 85 IQ, and fairly serious impulse control problems. And why, exactly, would Zimmerman bother to make up such a thing? What impact does what Trayvon Martin said while dying have on anything? For someone with impulse control problems, Zimmerman sure took a long time to shoot the person attacking him. By the way, I would say that Trayvon Martin’s impulse control problems were a little more serious. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1011 "2012-06-25T04:55:52Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > And why, exactly, would Zimmerman bother to make up such a thing? Because he’s too stupid to come up with a more plausible story? And thought it sounded cool to say? > [@emeraldia](#): > > For someone with impulse control problems, Zimmerman sure took a long time to shoot the person attacking him. By the way, I would say that Trayvon Martin’s impulse control problems were a little more serious. Zimmerman had resisted arrest and been cited for domestic violence. He also followed an unarmed teenager at night through a subdivision, fought with the kid, and shot him dead. If you think those things show good impulse control, I would like to offer you a low, low price on the package deal of several bridges, plus some oceanfront property. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1012 "2012-06-25T04:59:32Z")
The “straight dope” on the Zimmerman/Trayvon encounter is that it is a fairly easily proven case of self-defense that has been distorted by race politics and the media. The murder 2 charge against him is so silly, and there is no one -among the reasonable and well-informed- that believes he will ever be convicted of it. The people that decided Zimmerman is guilty will always think that way- and they will always find some way to demonize him. They are driven by emotional considerations and so reasoning with them is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1013 "2012-06-25T05:07:34Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Because he’s too stupid to come up with a more plausible story? And thought it sounded cool to say? > Zimmerman had resisted arrest and been cited for domestic violence. > > He also followed an unarmed teenager at night through a subdivision, fought with the kid, and shot him dead. > > If you think those things show good impulse control, I would like to offer you a low, low price on the package deal of several bridges, plus some oceanfront property. It really makes no difference what Trayvon Martin said before he died. Zimmerman did not resist arrest, nor was he cited for domestic violence. He pushed an plain-clothes officer who he thought was attacking his friend- and there was a mutual restraining order filed with him and an ex-girlfriend. It doesn’t really matter whether he has impulse control problems anyway. There is no credible evidence that he did anything illegal that night, impulsive or otherwise. These are just red herrings. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1014 "2012-06-25T05:38:50Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > It really makes no difference what Trayvon Martin said before he died. Zimmerman did not resist arrest, nor was he cited for domestic violence. He pushed an plain-clothes officer who he thought was attacking his friend- and there was a mutual restraining order filed with him and an ex-girlfriend. > > It doesn’t really matter whether he has impulse control problems anyway. There is no credible evidence that he did anything illegal that night, impulsive or otherwise. > > These are just red herrings. Even the most diehard Dimmerman fans here recognize that he displays _terrible_ judgement, at the very least. Do you agree? He has already lied _in court_ about his finances, _to a judge_. This isn’t remotely bright. How much dumber would he have to act before you’d agree his credibility is broke as heck? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1015 "2012-06-25T12:23:44Z")
> [@newme](#): > > At 12:15 in the [walkthrough](http://video.nytimes.com/video/2012/06/21/us/100000001620280/zimmerman-reenactment.html), Zimmerman says _during the fight_ that the following exchange occurred: This is quite different from the claim that **you with the face** made about what Zimmerman said. Far from being a contradiction, it is backed up by the known facts. Zimmerman knew the police were on the way - he called them. This is backed up by the phone records. In the reenactment, when a witness allegedly says he is going to call 911, Zimmerman says “No, help me!” This is not a contradiction of anything, it makes perfect sense. Zimmerman knew the police were already on their way, so his preference is that the witness help him get Martin off of him. **you with the face** ’s characterization of this as “talking out of both sides of his mouth” is completely false. > [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > It’ll be interesting to see how many people buy Zimmerman’s version of events with it’s far-fetched tales(after Zimmerman shoots Martin, Martin saying “you got me”) that sound like something out of a bad movie. The title of the bad movie might be something like “No Limit Nigga”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1016 "2012-06-25T13:26:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is quite different from the claim that **you with the face** made about what Zimmerman said. Far from being a contradiction, it is backed up by the known facts. Zimmerman knew the police were on the way - he called them. So at the start of the fight, when Martin supposedly stepped up to him aggressively, why would Zimmerman reach for his phone to call the cops? Did he think Martin would just stand there politely while Zimmerman chatted it with the dispatcher? The most logical and instinctual reaction would be to either run away or prepare to defend oneself. Not lower one’s head to get a phone that is of utmost uselessness in a situation like that. It’ll be interesting when John" testifies about where he saw the fight occur. Who wants to take bets on whether John says the fight occured on the grass or on the pavement? **Shodan** , years from now you better believe folks will be still be still talking about this case, regardless of what the verdict is. Do you really want to go down defending someone who most likely will rival Jeffery Dahmer and OJ Simpson in terms of criminal notoriety? I guess you do. Bless your heart. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1017 "2012-06-25T13:37:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is quite different from the claim that **you with the face** made about what Zimmerman said. Far from being a contradiction, it is backed up by the known facts. Zimmerman knew the police were on the way - he called them. This is backed up by the phone records. In the reenactment, when a witness allegedly says he is going to call 911, Zimmerman says “No, help me!” This is not a contradiction of anything, it makes perfect sense. Zimmerman knew the police were already on their way, so his preference is that the witness help him get Martin off of him. > > Regards, > Shodan This actually makes sense. I agree with this. I think you’re going to deeply, DEEPLY regret having backed Dimmerman, and I will say “I told you so” with evil glee when he is convicted. However, I agree with what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1018 "2012-06-25T14:53:04Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > … **He has already lied _in court_** about his finances, _to a judge_. This isn’t remotely bright. How much dumber would he have to act before you’d agree his credibility is broke as heck? No he didn’t. George Zimmerman never say anything about his finances. But you would have no way of knowing that. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1019 "2012-06-25T15:11:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’ll be interesting to see how many people buy Zimmerman’s version of events with it’s far-fetched tales(after Zimmerman shoots Martin, Martin saying “you got me”) that sound like something out of a bad movie. Why is it far-fetched? People are often influenced by movies. I’m not suggesting that Martin was a actual gangster but maybe that’s where Martin learned to act and talk like a gangster? Were you expecting him quote Shakespeare? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1020 "2012-06-25T15:15:06Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It is irrelevant that discussion is talking about the guilt of Zimmerman and thus giving him the benefit of the doubt. I to not agree nor concede that their assumptions are valid. > > They also get several items wrong in that post one of which is that Zimmerman’s flashlight was working, it was still on when it was collected as evidence. > > In this thread we are talking about the guilt of Trayvon and you need to give him the benefit of the doubt when judging his actions. > > You would expect differences in his statement, you would not expect him to LIE to change material elements of the event. Zimmerman’s account also doesn’t fit with the timeline nor do his injuries fit with his statements despite what your linked explanation says. > > It is quite clear that Zimmerman will lie to protect himself, if we go by Deedee’s statements Zimmerman was chasing him. Congratulations. You apparently didn’t notice that Zimmerman had **TWO** flashlights. He tried to use the first one and couldn’t get it to work and pulled out his keychain flashlight and used it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=52)