# Did Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his own ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287 "2012-05-18T03:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1041 "2012-06-26T04:37:02Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > The subdivision in question is a gated community. I can assure YOU that the rate of violent crimes is LOWER in gated communities. Do you need a cite on that? You’ve moved the goalpost on me. You were talking about subdivisions and suddenly you’ve decided that you meant gated community. When I think about a gated community I picture expensive homes owned by wealthy people. Was Zimmerman living in such an area? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1042 "2012-06-26T04:55:03Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > The subdivision in question is a gated community. I can assure YOU that the rate of violent crimes is LOWER in gated communities. Do you need a cite on that? Hahahaha. There is only one gated community/subdivision in question here and that’s The Retreat at Twin Lakes. The police records indicated that calls from the subdivision averaged around one call per day. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1043 "2012-06-26T05:03:13Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Hahahaha. There is only one gated community/subdivision in question here and that’s The Retreat at Twin Lakes. The police records indicated that calls from the subdivision averaged around one call per day. And YOU have indicated that you don’t understand the difference between a call to police and a violent crime. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1044 "2012-06-26T05:04:16Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > You’ve moved the goalpost on me. You were talking about subdivisions and suddenly you’ve decided that you meant gated community. When I think about a gated community I picture expensive homes owned by wealthy people. Was Zimmerman living in such an area? I am the most non-goalpost-moving person on this thread. Yes, the community is gated. This was mentioned _weeks_ ago in the media coverage. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1045 "2012-06-26T05:12:37Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Where’s your cite on that home invasion? > > And carrying a gun to the GROCERY STORE does not prevent burglaries. A working home alarm might help with that, but a gun at the grocery store does not. > > Any muggings or carjackings? THOSE are relevant crimes for carrying a gun outside the home. > > If you people want gun-toting, rootin’ tootin’ cowboys roaming the streets of gated communities, then you are crazy, and need to be locked up before you shoot someone. [http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425) BTW the article describes how Zimmerman bought pepper spray when his wife was cornered by a pitbull and then bought a gun when the animal control guy told him to buy a gun, because pepper spray wouldn’t stop a pitbull Are you trying to demonstrate how ignorant you are? Grocery store parking lots are prime locations for muggings since people are carrying cash to buy food. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1046 "2012-06-26T05:17:54Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > And carrying a gun to the GROCERY STORE does not prevent burglaries. A working home alarm might help with that, but a gun at the grocery store does not. > > Any muggings or carjackings? THOSE are relevant crimes for carrying a gun outside the home. > > If you people want gun-toting, rootin’ tootin’ cowboys roaming the streets of gated communities, then you are crazy, and need to be locked up before you shoot someone. Hahahaha. I realise that you don’t understand that the majority of Florida voters don’t accept your fantasy of how they should live their lives. Maybe if you keep pointing out how “crazy” they are, you can convince all of them to ignore you completely? You’ll just have to learn to accept the fact that Florida voters expect to be able to defend themselves and that they reject your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1047 "2012-06-26T05:22:17Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > [http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425) > > BTW the article describes how Zimmerman bought pepper spray when his wife was cornered by a pitbull and then bought a gun when the animal control guy told him to buy a gun, because pepper spray wouldn’t stop a pitbull > > Are you trying to demonstrate how ignorant you are? Grocery store parking lots are prime locations for muggings since people are carrying cash to buy food. So is Trayvon Martin the name of a grocery store chain in Florida? Perhaps the name of the chain is actually “Young Black Guy in Hoodie Walking At Night”. I LITERALLY just facepalmed at you, right now. My forehead dropped into my hand in reaction to your comment about grocery-store muggings. Sure Dimmy had SOME kind of an excuse to take his gun to the grocery store. What was Dimmy’s excuse for taking his gun with him to go play cops 'n robbers? And you are right, guns are an _excellent_ way to stop a pit bull, assuming you are trained sufficiently. I imagine the _easier_ way to deal with that, though, is enforce the leash laws a little better, and make the penalties stiffer. You do have a point about that, though. Just not anything else, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1048 "2012-06-26T05:24:34Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Hahahaha. I realise that you don’t understand that the majority of Florida voters don’t accept your fantasy of how they should live their lives. Maybe if you keep pointing out how “crazy” they are, you can convince all of them to ignore you completely? > > You’ll just have to learn to accept the fact that Florida voters expect to be able to defend themselves and that they reject your opinion. You’re serious? You’re actually playing “nanny-nanny boo-boo” with me? Wow. This issue really brings out the mature adult in you, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1049 "2012-06-26T05:28:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Dimmerman carried a gun _against the wishes of others_, on quasi-official duty; that’s a strike against his his credibility right there. He’s going against the advice of other Neighborhood Watch volunteers. How is that smart? The fact he was carrying a gun has no legal relevance. Having said that, was it smart for him to carry one? Well, there is no evidence that he brandished or otherwise used his gun inappropriately until he fired in self-defense. Other people are entitled to their opinions and their wishes about whether Z should have carried a gun. (Personally, I don’t see the point in having a gun for self-protection if you aren’t going to have it on you. ) > [@](#): > > It’s a goddamn subdivision. When has anyone needed a gun in that subdivision, to stop a criminal from harming them, or entering their home? There had been a shooting in that subdivision in the year before. Also a home invasion. Source is: [http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425) > [@](#): > > He’s not out riding the range, in rattlesnake, bear, and cougar territory. There’s a time and place for carrying a loaded gun. A relatively peaceful subdivision is not such a a place or time. Apparently, he actually got the gun on the advise of an animal control officer (because of a dog in the neighborhood that had menaced his wife.) Also, as I mentioned, the neighborhood was relatively high-crime as far as subdivisions go. Third, perhaps the Target he was headed to was in a bad area. Bottom line is, he doesn’t need to justify carrying a gun. It was his right. And there is no evidence that he misused the gun. If he were prone to use it, I don’t think he would have screamed for a minute and a half. > [@](#): > > I’ve got friends who carry concealed handguns _all the time_. THOSE guys have the good judgement not to get themselves into this sort of thing. > > Dimmerman, OTOH, has shown he does not have the good judgement to avoid creating situations where he might end up using his gun. And yes, he DID create this situation. Trayvon did NOT create it by being young, black, male, and wearing a hoodie. Of course not. Trayvon created it by committing assault and battery on Zimmerman. It had nothing to do with Skittles, Arizona Iced Tea, or hoodies, either. Those are just silly red herrings. Trayvon created the situation when he: a) assaulted and battered Zimmerman; b) CONTINUED to attack Zimmerman (even as Zimmerman screamed for help dozens of times.) It is b) that got Trayvon killed. And it is b) that causes me to not have a ton of sympathy for the kid. Zimmerman is extremely fortunate that his screams for help were heard by witnesses and captured on tape. That, along with the injuries to him- and the _absence_ of pre-shooting injuries to Trayvon. Finally, the witness(es) placing Martin on top of Zimmerman (either hitting him or holding him down). Those three things are a tri-fecta for Zimmerman. In my mind, they not only create reasonable doubt as to his criminal culpability, but make a very compelling case for his innocence. I will be impressed if the prosecution can even manage to create a reasonable doubt as to his innocence. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1050 "2012-06-26T05:30:32Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > The subdivision in question is a gated community. I can assure YOU that the rate of violent crimes is LOWER in gated communities. Do you need a cite on that? Yes I do and I would also like to break out subdivisions like Twin Lakes that don’t have a wall around the whole subdivision so criminals can just walk in and don’t have a guard and leave the gate open for months at a time for construction. What Twin Lakes had was security theater. Comparing Twin Lakes to places with guards is apples to oranges. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1051 "2012-06-26T05:37:40Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > I will be impressed if the prosecution can even manage to create a reasonable doubt as to his innocence. If you _really, honestly_ believe this, I am going to have to refer you to the fact that Bricker dropped his support for Dimmerman as soon as Dimmy was shown to be dishonest about his donation money. You might want to take a clue from Bricker. He’s no fool. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1052 "2012-06-26T05:40:19Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It’s a sad state of affairs when kids have to be warned about the _neighborhood watch_. It’s a far sadder state of affairs when kids _beat up_ the neighborhood watch. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1053 "2012-06-26T05:42:34Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Yes I do and I would also like to break out subdivisions like Twin Lakes that don’t have a wall around the whole subdivision so criminals can just walk in and don’t have a guard and leave the gate open for months at a time for construction. What Twin Lakes had was security theater. Comparing Twin Lakes to places with guards is apples to oranges. Assuming you know what you’re talking about there with the lack of a wall and the open gate, I agree. But it’s still ridiculous to carry a gun when you’re just going to the goddamn grocery store. I think I may start to see what happened here, though. It sounds like Zimmerman didn’t intentionally take his gun with him to follow Trayvon. He just happened to have it on him. As to whether he lied about what happened after, and whether or not he’s truly guilty, I don’t know yet. My _guess_ is that he lied about some pretty serious details, and is, in fact, guilty of murder. However, I’m a little less likely to call him a vigilante, strictly speaking. Still a fool, probably a murderer, but maybe not a vigilante. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1054 "2012-06-26T05:42:43Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > You’re serious? You’re actually playing “nanny-nanny boo-boo” with me? > > Wow. This issue really brings out the mature adult in you, doesn’t it? Hahaha. You’re a hoot. The State of Florida allows it’s residents to carry firearms because that’s what the majority of Florida voters wanted. Zimmerman wasn’t violating any Florida laws by buying, owning, or carrying a firearm. Even Corey accepts the fact that Zimmerman could carry a firearm in Florida. You’re out of step with reality. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1055 "2012-06-26T05:43:35Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > It’s a far sadder state of affairs when kids _beat up_ the neighborhood watch. No it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1056 "2012-06-26T05:45:08Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Hahaha. You’re a hoot. The State of Florida allows it’s residents to carry firearms because that’s what the majority of Florida voters wanted. > > Zimmerman wasn’t violating any Florida laws by buying, owning, or carrying a firearm. Even Corey accepts the fact that Zimmerman could carry a firearm in Florida. You’re out of step with reality. _Please_ don’t play “nanny-nanny boo-boo”. It’s just irritating. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1057 "2012-06-26T05:59:58Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > _Please_ don’t play “nanny-nanny boo-boo”. It’s just irritating. I’m not sure what “nanny-nanny boo-boo” is. Is that some kind of martial arts thing? Does it help you focus your chi? Does it cause chafing? ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1058 "2012-06-26T06:01:08Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > If you _really, honestly_ believe this, I am going to have to refer you to the fact that Bricker dropped his support for Dimmerman as soon as Dimmy was shown to be dishonest about his donation money. > > You might want to take a clue from Bricker. He’s no fool. Who is Bricker? And even it is convincingly demonstrated to me that George Zimmerman was dishonest about his donation money, that is not of material importance to me in assessing his criminal culpability that night. I happen to believe that Zimmerman, by and large, told the truth about what happened that night- with the usual cognitive inconsistencies, and probably some typical self-serving exaggerations. But I don’t need to believe him in order to believe he is innocent. I just need to believe the medical examiners, doctors, and other evidence that he sustained significant injuries (and that Trayvon Martin didn’t). And their credibility has nothing to do with Zimmerman’s. I also need to believe that witness 6- who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman either punching him or holding him down. (and who, if you listen to his audio interview, still believes it was Zimmerman yelling for help.) I need to hear the 911 call recordings of the screams in the background. And then apply a touch of common sense to the facts: Zimmerman sustained all the injuries up until he fired. Martin had none (but on his knuckles). Martin was on top of Zimmerman either punching him or holding him down. Occam’s Razor, common sense, and the evidence lead to the somewhat obvious conclusion that Zimmerman was yelling for help. The evidence outside of Zimmerman’s account generally and convincingly supports that he was justified in shooting Trayvon Martin. If your friend Becker changed his mind based on what he perceives as the diminished credibility of Zimmerman, then I suggest he was relying too much upon what Zimmerman said in the first place. It would be silly to just take Zimmerman’s word for it. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1059 "2012-06-26T06:05:40Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > No it’s not. Yes it is. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287/1060 "2012-06-26T06:12:45Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Who is Bricker? It’s just my opinion but I seriously doubt that **al27052** speaks for **Bricker**. Or anyone else for that matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trayvon-martin-have-the-right-to-stand-his-own-ground/622287.md?page=54)