see this sign: http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_aug2011/AntiGunNeighbour.jpg
If you can consider someone who broke someones nose and beat their head on the ground to be “innocent”.
It’s hard to even say he followed Martin for any distance let alone stalk him. If you look at Google Earth you can actually measure it in feet. It’s about 225 feet total from where his truck was to where the fight occurred. It’s another 300 feet to Martin’s house.
The other word thrown around for inflammatory affect is “vigilante”.
from Wiki: “A vigilante is a private individual (or (pl.) group of individuals) who presumes to carry out extralegal punishment in defiance of existing law.”
Zimmerman called the proper authority to report a suspicious character. That would be the opposite of vigilante.
For the last month, Harvard University law professor Alan Dershowitz has been saying the affidavit justifying Zimmerman’s arrest was “not only thin, it’s irresponsible.” He has also criticize the decision to charge Zimmerman for second degree murder by Angela Corey to be politically motivated.
Corey has respond by threatening to have Dershowitz disbarred and has threatened to sue the Harvard law school. Good luck with that. :rolleyes: Where is she going to find a law firm that will sue a law school with the pedigree of Harvard law? Where is she going to find a law firm that hasn’t hired a Harvard law grad?
It certainly looks like Corey is getting desperate.
Given the fact that you’ve cheered the idea of attacking people, kicking in their ribs and stabbing them rest assured I will avoid you as if you were the kind of person who would attack, kick, and stab someone instead of talking with them.
Zimmerman is a known liar and has the most to gain by lying and distorting. I don’t consider what he has said to be evidence. Subtract his supposed statement out of the picture and what do you have?
The witness who had the best vantage point of the fight scene has now said he is not sure what he saw. He saw Martin on top–either pinning OR punching. But he isn’t sure which. He also initially reported that it was Zimmerman who’d been yelling. Now he admits he couldn’t have known that for certain since it was so dark.
We have pictures of Zimmerman with bruises on his face and a small laceration on his head. These are consistent with a major brawl, but they are also consistent with a guy who only got punched and slipped and fell on the wet grass. I don’t consider this evidence very compelling of anything, especially since he declined medical attention (and then claiming the contrary through his former lawyer…did ya’ll forget this?)
On the other hand…
We have testimony from one person that Martin claimed he was being aggressively followed and that he was afraid.
Phone records indicate that Martin was on the phone when he–if we are to believe Zimmerman’s story–supposedly double-backed to ambush Zimmerman, gangsta-thug style.
We have a witness account that it was a young male screaming out there in the yard, which, if true, would strongly suggest that Martin had not been the aggressor.
Martin’s body position needs to be explained. I’ve brought this up repeatedly. The way his body was found does not jibe with Zimmerman’s supposed claim that he shot Martin while he was top of him. Anyone looking at this objectively HAS to stop and consider this point. Since we do not know what Zimmerman says to explain it, this isn’t a “gotcha” yet. But if he doesn’t?
We have a witness who says he saw the two men separated from each other. In his story, does he mention any break in the violence, any moment that would explain how they became separated? Why would the witness be mistaken on this point? Why should we ignore this witness but believe the other?
We have evidence of motive/intent from the 911 tape. The man on the recording is not calm and cool-headed. He’s following someone he’s afraid of, who he suspects is drugged and weaponed. He’s labeled him a “punk” and thinks “they” always get away. He also knows Martin knows he’s being followed (because he noted that Martin saw him and was coming towards him…until he wasn’t anymore). He has to be cautioned not to do something that most rational people know is dangerous and unwise. Does he tell the police officers any of this in his account? Or does he stick to the “I just got out of my car to check the street sign” bit because he knows this paints him in the most favorable? We don’t know yet. We also don’t know what he told friends and family that may have contradicted what he told police officers. Seems to me that without knowing this information, no one should be proclaiming his innocence.
In summary, the stuff we do know paints Zimmerman in a unfavorable light, and there are a whole lot of unknowns out there that need some 'splaining. I’ve been patiently waiting for something to come out that makes Zimmerman’s story sound more likely (like signs of injuries on Martin’s hands), and I just get more WTF! I’m curious what has other people so convinced. I thought for sure the moment Zimmerman had been revealed as a dumb-ass liar, some folks would waver in their ardency. But they haven’t. I’m not so cynical to think it’s racism, but it does seems irrational to me nonetheless.
Dershowitz is also a very experienced legal expert. He tends (as I do, I think) to immediately analyze any set of facts from a defense perspective, but that’s not a flaw. (Of course I would say that!)
But there’s one thing that makes Corey’s opinion about this evidence much better than Dershowitz’s, or mine.
She’s seen it.
We know that Martin initiated the conversation. As to the ambush that is certainly conjecture but It’s followed by a beating that was filled with great intensity. If there is a long gap of available travel time for Martin then it gives the appearance that he went out of his way to confront Zimmerman. If on the other hand Martin was attacked by Zimmerman then what followed ceased to be self defense very early on. He could have kicked him in the balls while he was down and that would have been the end of it.
People don’t always keel over instantly when they’re shot. However, maybe this is some of the evidence the prosecutor has that we don’t. If Zimmerman didn’t fire at point blank range then forensic analysis should demonstrate that.
The forensic analysis in the released evidence already demonstrated that Zimmerman fired inches away from Martin.
And I will avoid YOU as if you are the kind of person who would SHOOT someone instead of talking with them.
See the difference? You advocate gun violence. I advocate hand-to-hand combat, if absolutely necessary.
I don’t trust guns. They are often useless in hand-to-hand encounters, and anybody can get control of a gun and use it. I’ve not yet had anyone get control of my fist and punch me with it.
Also, I’m not worried about criminals. Take my car, take my wallet, take my iPhone (I MIGHT beat an ass over the iPhone, that thing is my baby), you probably need it more than I do. Come in my house, OTOH, I might kill you. I draw the line at my front door.
And here’s why all you gun advocates have no credibility with me–guns are often useless in close-quarters combat, and there’s nothing but close-quarters combat in a home invasion. You’re better off with a nice long kitchen knife, or some brass knuckles, etc.. or even just your bare hands. Guns are no substitute for martial arts skills. Get that through your heads.
Which analysis is that? Are you a forensics expert? Work in the field? Trained in the field?
I’ve learned to be skeptical of the “established facts” touted by people who hold extreme opinions.
The analysis of the forensic lab that analyzed Martin’s clothes and the analysis of the medical examiner. Tell the truth - you haven’t looked at the evidence released in this case, have you?
Right. Which is why police stations around the nation train police officers to abandon their pistols, shotguns and submachine guns in favor of batons and knives when they’re indoors. The same is equally true of the US Armed Forces who have abandoned the use of firearms when assaulting indoor targets.
I’ve consistently stated that this could have been solved by talking it through. You have not. Zimmerman only shot him after getting the beating you advocate should have happened. Martin would be alive today if he didn’t follow the course of action you advocate. If he had continued talking with Zimmerman instead of beating him relentlessly there would have been no need for Zimmerman to defend himself.
Uh, you DO realize that members of the Special Forces are quite often black belts and martial arts instructors, right? How do I know, might you ask? Because I’ve taught martial arts alongside these guys.
But whatever. Your complete lack of martial arts training makes this a completely fruitless discussion.
There’s no real clear line between gun training and regular martial arts training, anyway. Cops are taught the basics of how to fight hand-to-hand, and I assume they are also taught about the very real possibility that an opponent can take their gun away. The reality, is, though, that cops are often woefully under-trained for real life-and-death situations…and they sometimes die on the job partially because of that fact.
Just link it, if you’ve got it. Otherwise, keep jabbering, I’m entertained by how big a joke you’re being.
Ah so you haven’t seen it. Figures, since you’re arguing from ignorance.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf
Did you not read my posts, or are you purposely “misunderstanding” me?
I even said several pages ago that my course of action would have been to run, and keep running. Why double back and fight? Zimmerman’s no sprinter.
I can understand why Trayvon would double back and fight, and have already said that it was a regrettable, and hot-headed, course of action.
My point has nothing to do with whether Zimmerman committed a crime. Fuck the law. Florida’s SYG law is BS, and I think all handguns should be banned, period. Not long guns, but handguns. They never WILL be, but that’s what I want to see.
MY point, which I think you’re quite aware of, is that Zimmerman + guns=giant mess. Given that obvious fact, he needs to be incarcerated, because free men can always get guns in this country VERY easily, if they’re motivated.
For that matter, the people who donated to his legal fund would probably LOVE to buy him 5 or 10 handguns.
It’s a lovely world.
You haven’t got the training to interpret that, do you?