The law lays out the times that someone can claim SYG:
The law lists those specific circumstances. Since SYG is a legislatively created immunity, it is available only when the legislature specifies it to be available. There is no murky “maybe ground” where it might be available or might not be available.
That’s where the proportionality of force comes into play, and that’s why dueling isn’t legal. SYG is irrelevant to these issues.
If we assume that Zimmerman’s story is true, then Martin had the right to stand his ground for the verbal assault and could have given verbal assaults back. When he started punching Zimmerman and slamming his head against the curb, he escalated the force above what was reasonably necessary and Zimmerman was justified in shooting him, SYG law or not.
If we assume that Martin’s story is true, then he was justified in responding with non-deadly force when he was reasonably in fear for his bodily safety when Zimmerman grabbed, shoved, punched, or whatever he did. It was then Zimmerman who escalated the force from a fist-fight to deadly force which is why he is guilty of murder. Again, SYG has nothing to do with it.
It’s been said, but ignored by posters in this thread and the media: the ONLY thing that SYG changes from centuries of self-defense law is that you don’t have to show that you did everything you could to retreat from the situation at hand.
Have you ever taken long walks on the streets at night? Somebody’s been following you in a car. And he doesn’t just talk out the window at you asking how to get to the gay bars on Pacific Street and offering you a ride. He stops and gets out. I’m sorry, but how I grew up, this is a possible kill or be killed situation. Maybe Trayvon saw it the same way. I’m not gay, but they don’t care you’re not gay. To be straight in alien territory is sometimes worse in their eyes.
Sorry, no. You got beef with me, you can talk through your car window. You get out, and I will seriously consider fucking you up if I think I can take you. And if I succeed, no consequences for me. Who gives a shit if it’s a felony. Why the fuck were you following me? And it would seem that I would be justified in doing so under the SYG law. And I have a bonus that Trayvon didn’t have. I’m whiter than Zimmerman. Sorry, if you’re Zimmerman and I’m a white Trayvon who can still fight like I could 15 years ago, you’re going to jail for a long time for killing me. Don’t think race doesn’t matter. And if I snagged your gun and shot you, I’d get nothing except a high five from the cops.
OK, So where’s the blood on the short form the earliest Zimmerman video. This medical report shit is fake and you don’t want to recognize it.
Sorry, yes.
You will have to excuse me if I fail to see how an attitude of “I am going to fuck up anyone who talks to me on the street, and who gives a shit if it is a felony” is going to lead to “no consequences for me”.
No, that’s incorrect. Stand Your Ground does give you the right to punch people who ask you questions.
Congratulations on your insight. Who do you think faked the medical reports, what was their motive, and what evidence do you have that this is the case?
Regards,
Shodan
The law says reasonable fear of death or great bodily injury. Your described fear is not reasonable.
And you would be committing a felony.
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Who gives a shit if it’s a felony. Why the fuck were you following me? And it would seem that I would be justified in doing so under the SYG law.
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You would “give a shit” when on trial for that felony. And no, you would not be justified under the SYG law, since you wouldn’t have had reasonable fear of death or great bodily injury.
There are multiple photos the police took of Zimmerman’s bloody head, and multiple police and EMT reports that say his head was bleeding. Are they all fake?
Didn’t you watch the video I posted where we saw Zimmerman at the police station? There was no evidence of the broken nose. No blood in the shirt.
And what about Zimmerman’s past history of making multiple 911 calls? And have you listened to the calls he made that night. The audio is out there. Zimmerman was a frightened little pseudo-hero who wanted to kill a young black dude
Have you ever been followed om foot by creeps in a car? Most are harmless closet cases from the burbs. But someone gets out of the car and it’s a potential bashing. I have mostly relied on the insanity strategy when this happened., but I was backed up with a defensible position and two stakes from campaign signs.
Hell, no. You fuck up a basher who’s been following you in his vehicle, the cops won’t care and the stalker will slink back home
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Who gives a shit if it’s a felony. Why the fuck were you following me? And it would seem that I would be justified in doing so under the SYG law.
Oh, wait a second. Didn’t you watch the video I posted? That was the earliest video we had of Zimmerman. No broken nose, no black eyes.
No, I didn’t see you post any videos. Nonetheless, my question is, who faked the medical reports, and what was their motive?
He was the neighborhood watch for his subdivision. Reporting things to 911 is part of the job.
Are you suggesting that he is a racist because he called 911 to report a lost child, since that child was black?
Regards,
Shodan
For some reason I find it easy to see why you were believed.
Regards,
Shodan
You bet it works. You see, real criminals are scared as shit when they attack, they rehere a script in their minds to suppress their fear. You break their script by acting crazy and they will most likely go away. I gall it the hognose snake defense. The hognose first tries to be a rattlesnake and then turns its belly and flashes weird undulating colors. If you don’t act like a victim you most likely won’t be a victim.
Am I alone in thinking that being followed in a vehicle while walking is a potential threat situation? Maybe I should cruise along side you while you are walking your dogs. Maybe when you make eye contact I will speed up and loop around the block to come up behind you again. What am I? A scary motherfucker, just like Zimmerman.
Dude follows me in his car and gets out and I will consider him a potential killer. At my age all I have is the hognose snake defense. But ten years ago I would consider fucking his shit up. Still might do it today if I thought I could take the dude and felt my monkey rage. And wouldn’t this be standing my ground? Why the hell was he following me in the first place? I’m not young and pretty anymore when they mostly wanted me to suck their dicks and accepted my refusal. So follow in a vehicle means bodily harm.
Zimmerman wanted to kill him a Negro and be a hero. He had made 20 other calls to 911 before that night. Hell, I have been the victim of three crimes and a witness to one crime in the last five years and I have called 911 ONCE. The non-emergency number was enough the other three times. Arson detective called me back before the fire trucks and arson squad arrived. I told him I would not talk to the cops as I feared retaliation, but that I would talk to him. When to cops came to take a statement I told them I would not talk to them and that they should pretend to be taking a statement and that it was the same as every other statement.
Listen to the original Zimmerman calls. Dude was hyped. He had been told to break off contact by the 911 dispatcher, and if he had broken contact, Trayvon would have been chillin’ on his dad’s GF’s couch drinking his Snapple and eating his Skittles and the police would have found nothing amiss.
BTW here is the earliest video of Zimmerman at the police station the night of the killing:
No blood on the shirt.
But if Trayvon had given the full beatdown to Zimmerman, so what? Car follows a pedestrian, it’s always a potential kill situation. So obviously Zimmerman just got out of the car and shot dead the kind of the person he always wanted to kill
If you are thinking that being followed in a car, or being confronted by the local neighborhood watch guy, gives you the right to use violence, then you may not be alone but you are completely wrong.
It is entirely legal to ask a stranger questions on the street like “what are you up to?” It is entirely legal to ignore the person asking the question, or tell him to piss off. It is entirely illegal to punch him in the nose.
The law does not recognize this kind of paranoia as the basis for self-defense.
No. Stand Your Ground has to do with situations of self-defense. Someone getting out of his car does not constitute an attack.
Zimmerman was the local neighborhood watch guy, and wanted to know what this stranger was up to. There had been a number of burglaries in the area.
No, it doesn’t, and the idea is ridiculous.
There is no evidence of this.
He’s the neighborhood watch guy. Calling 911 is part of what they do.
And, if Zimmerman is telling the story straight, if Martin had not treated being asked questions as an assault, as you seem to believe is how it’s done, the incident also would never had occurred. And your idea of treating questions as assault is illegal. So if Martin did the same, he was engaged in illegal behavior and SYG has nothing to do with it.
For the third time, who faked it, and what was their motivation?
So Martin would be the guilty party.
Again, no it is not, and there is no evidence of racial animus on Zimmerman’s part.
Regards,
Shodan
I’ve called 911 at least ten times since moving into my current residence five years ago. I’ve called the non-emergency number three times. Does this mean I’m chomping at the bit to kill someone?
Where the hell did you grow up? People following pedestrians in cars are never up to no good. Seriously, I follow you in my car while you’re walking, you won’t be pretty freaked out?
I would seriously hope that female Dopers would weigh in here. You got followed by a car while you are on foot and the guy stops and gets out. Isn’t this automatically a kill or be killed situation?
No, I wouldn’t, because I’m white. White dudes who give the beatdown to creeps following them in cars get away with it, as should black dudes.
Uh, I didn’t see any blood on Zimmerman’s shirt in that police video I posted. Broken nose? If that even happened he must have broken it himself.
So you have no evidence Martin went for the beatdown, and I still maintain that if Martin had gone for the beatdown he would have been justified in doing so by the SYG law.
Did Zimmerman’s vehicle have some kind of sign that he was part of the watch? If I were approached by a vehicle labeled this way I would be inclined to talk my way out of things. But if all I can see is that it is some random dude in a car, I’m on full alert.
Yeah, maybe it’s legal to ask questions. but haven’t you listened to the Zimmerman 911 recordings. Dude was hyped. Hyped dude asks me a question and I’m gonna be pretty freaked. If he’s hyped enough and I can’t get out of it, I will consider the beatdown as a reasonable option. BTW, the earliest evidence indicates that Martin did NOT take the beatdown option:
Though I still think Martin would have been justified in resorting to the beatdown. Zimmerman stalked and killed.
Who faked it? Zimmerman faked it. Dude would be a murderer if he didn’t find a way to fake it. And that’s what he is, a murderer. Watch the video. No blood. Zimmernan stalked and killed him a Negro, what a hero! And if you don’t think racial animus or racial calculations were involved, you are incredibly naive, and you haven’t listened to Zimmerman’s 911 calls.
Wow, that’s … Wow. Seriously. Wow. You’ve discovered a portal into an alternate universe. You should be selling tickets.
The only party I’m aware of that’s faked evidence in this case is NBC News, who tried to make the 911 recording sound like it was a racist encounter.
Anybody who thinks it’s safer for the public for Zimmerman to be a free man, instead of in jail, is…well, I don’t know, but they’re not very smart.
Imagine if we cloned Zimmerman for a moment, in every way down to the slightest quirk of personality. Imagine if we then created 100 million Zimmermans.
Would our streets be safer with these extra 100 million armed vigilantes on the loose, or withOUT?
Not that I am aware of. But that makes no difference. Whether you have a sign on your car or not, people do not have the right to punch you in the face if you ask them questions.
And if you did, you would be guilty of assault and battery, and, if the beatdown was threatening enough, the person you attacked would be legally justified in shooting you.
Zimmerman faked the police reports, medical reports, and videos that all showed that he was injured? How did he manage that?
Regards,
Shodan
Can anyone demonstrate some reasonable to assume, and safe situations in which a driver would follow a total stranger walking through the night, ignoring the poor fellow’s attempts to get away?
Let’s assume vigilante isn’t one of them.
Because, and especially at 17, if some creep (and Zimmerman is a creep) was following me through a dark stormy night, ignoring my attempts to get away, I’d feel I was probably in significant in danger. I think this is a reasonable feeling. Quote this whole paragraph and tell me I’m wrong.
The first one that springs to mind is that the driver is the local neighborhood watch.
Well, I don’t know if you are wrong, but we are not talking about reasonable feelings, but reasonable reactions to those feelings. Maybe you feel threatened. If you respond to that by attacking someone who has committed no crime (if that is how this happened) then you are in the wrong.
For the umpteenth time, being questioned is not a threat, and does not justify a violent response.
Regards,
Shodan