# Did Trump Miscalculate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 13, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543 "2017-08-13T15:31:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/261 "2017-08-18T20:10:50Z")
> [@ganthet](#): > > But that’s just it - Republicans impeaching and then removing Trump would tear the Republican Party apart. Particularly if there is no smoking gun evidence of any collusion on Trump himself’s part or if there is only evidence of some abstract financial crime. Of all the presidents who were impeached or were about to be impeached, Andrew Johnson, Nixon, and Clinton, all were impeached (or about to be) by a Congress controlled by another party. Johnson was historically a Democrat and the Lincoln/Johnson ticket in the 1864 election was listed as under the National Union ticket, not the Republicans. So, it would historically be unprecedented for a party controlling Congress to impeach (let alone remove) a president of their own party. It would split the base, potentially irrevocably. Pretty much. And at this point, even if a Democratic Congress in 2019 impeached Trump, it would only do more damage to this country. It wouldn’t be seen as justice, it would be seen as vindictive on the part of Democrats and would only increase the divide between partisans. The Democratic Party removing Trump, I believe, would result in civil unrest unseen since at least the 1960s, if not the Civil War. It’s a no-win for us. Keep Trump, and the country only becomes more and more of a joke, remove him and the uglier elements of our society may create chaos and bloodshed. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/262 "2017-08-18T20:44:17Z")
Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but looking to the 2018 mid-term elections, I would think the Republicans would fare better then if they can get rid of Trump _now_. And the Dems would fare better if Trump is still irritating people until election time. The only problem with that is, can the nation survive 17 more months of this? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/263 "2017-08-18T20:45:11Z")
My primary motivation isn’t to destroy the Republican Party. My primary motivation is to protect the country and people I care about. And no, I don’t consider those things synonymous. The GOP is doing terrible things and wants to do worse. But there are things worse than the GOP, and Trump can be the conduit for those things. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/264 "2017-08-18T20:51:23Z")
> [@ganthet](#): > > But that’s just it - Republicans impeaching and then removing Trump would tear the Republican Party apart. Particularly if there is no smoking gun evidence of any collusion on Trump himself’s part or if there is only evidence of some abstract financial crime. Of all the presidents who were impeached or were about to be impeached, Andrew Johnson, Nixon, and Clinton, all were impeached (or about to be) by a Congress controlled by another party. Johnson was historically a Democrat and the Lincoln/Johnson ticket in the 1864 election was listed as under the National Union ticket, not the Republicans. So, it would historically be unprecedented for a party controlling Congress to impeach (let alone remove) a president of their own party. It would split the base, potentially irrevocably. There’s not going to be any impeachment. Republicans know it would tear the party apart. Unless Trump is found in bed with the proverbial live boy or dead girl, it is inconceivable. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/265 "2017-08-18T20:52:22Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > My primary motivation isn’t to destroy the Republican Party. My primary motivation is to protect the country and people I care about. And no, I don’t consider those things synonymous. > > The GOP is doing terrible things and wants to do worse. But there are things worse than the GOP, and Trump can be the conduit for those things. agree. Schumer should cozy up to McConnell and make a deal. We’ll work with you on tax cuts, infrastructure, and fixing ACA. Bipartisanship. And, both parties will unanimously vote to remove Trump from office. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/266 "2017-08-18T21:20:13Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > …The Democratic Party removing Trump, I believe, would result in civil unrest unseen since at least the 1960s, if not the Civil War. This has been a right-wing talking point for quite a while, now. You may not realize how ridiculous such chest-thumping makes you look. Partly because we’ve all had a good look at the “militias,” and partly because of what is likely to occur if Trump stays in office. If you don’t think Trump will call for violence next Tuesday in Phoenix–right after pardoning Arpaio–then you haven’t been paying attention. He will call on the neo-Nazis and other pro-violence right-wingers in attendance to Take Back Our Country. He may even call for the removal-by-violence of Arizona’s two GOP Senators, who’ve each become ‘enemies’ in his eyes (that would be John McCain and Jeff Flake). Blood in the streets is far more likely if Trump _remains_ President than if Trump is removed from office. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/267 "2017-08-18T21:34:18Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > No, no, a thousand times no. > > Trump is not allowed to crash the plane until he takes the entire Republican Party with it. A Republican party without Trump dragging it down is a million times worse for the future of the country. Every Democrat needs to get that straight in their heads. No impeachment, no resignation, no 25th Amendment. Keep Trump around until the thought of ever electing another Republican to any position is unthinkable. No. You’re just putting party over country. If we crash, we all crash, not just Republicans. It is not worth harming our country to stop the Republicans. Before Trump, we were winning anyways. We have the demographics. And we can now point to Trump if anyone tries to use his tactics to win. This is just as bad as Republicans who would attack Obama at every turn. I, a Democrat, will not march with you to have our country (or, if nukes get involved, possibly the world) destroyed because you want to destroy the other political party. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/268 "2017-08-18T21:38:36Z")
Dems may have the demographics, but they don’t have the unity. That’s always been the Pubbies’ strong suit; being able to hold their noses to vote for whichever meat puppet the RNC puts up as a candidate. Until Dems find it, or Pubs’ unity is broken, it’ll be the same old song and dance. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/269 "2017-08-18T21:40:39Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > 492-dimensional chess: > > 4 days after going full White Supremist, Trump fires head WS Steve Bannon. Bannon: > > 1. Can reasonably argue “I put you in that seat, I can take you out of it!” > 2. Owns a media empire > 3. Drinks > 4. Is likely super-pissed right now. > > We know that whenever somebody gets trdumped, there is a rash of leaks the two weeks following… what the hell is going to happen now is up to anyone’s guess. I’ve heard that the Long Knives of Breitbart will be put to use in attacking Kelly/McMaster and that Bannon still has Trump’s ear, I’ve also heard it is open season on DJT for his Nazi flip-flops. > > Time will tell. I’m wondering if Bannon ever said something along the lines of: _“I only tell you one time. Don’t fuck me, Donny. Don’t you ever try to fuck me.”_ ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/270 "2017-08-18T21:47:28Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No. You’re just putting party over country. If we crash, we all crash, not just Republicans. It is not worth harming our country to stop the Republicans. Plus there will always be another Republican, or whatever the conservative-populist-religious right faction coalition comes to call itself. It took just ONE term after Nixon to get Reagan in office. The Right will not go away, you want it to come back to its senses and be the sort of conservatives that want to, well, conserve the nation as best they can, not to see it in flames. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/271 "2017-08-18T21:51:15Z")
Still too early to read the tea leaves but I wonder if this doesn’t potentially lead to a civil war within the GOP /right wing. The different factions may finally be starting to take their positions. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/272 "2017-08-18T22:03:11Z")
Meanwhile the sad fact is that Trump’s unpopularity in polling data, both Gallup and across the board, has NOT increased further over these last several days of relative pandering to overt racism, anti-Semitism, and hatemongering. His disapproval on Gallup has dropped four points on Gallup over the past four days and approval is up by the same. And roughly 3 in 4 Republicans still approve of the job he is doing. If it is GOP civil war I am not so sure that Trump will lose. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/273 "2017-08-19T00:56:48Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No. You’re just putting party over country. If we crash, we all crash, not just Republicans. It is not worth harming our country to stop the Republicans. Nope. The only hope for the country is to de-legitimize the Republican party. No modern country can survive a party that accepts hate as a guiding principle. If Trump is allowed to get away with a statement that equates Nazis with anti-Nazi protestors then it has become time to equate the Republican Party with Nazis. The idea is not a violent clash but to institutionalize shame against Republicans in the same way that shame has been institutionalized against Nazis. They are a symbol of evil that only evil people can embrace. The Republican Party has officially made itself into a symbol of evil and should be treated that way. > [@DSeid](#): > > Meanwhile the sad fact is that Trump’s unpopularity in polling data, both Gallup and across the board, has NOT increased further over these last several days of relative pandering to overt racism, anti-Semitism, and hatemongering. I’ll back this up with [the composite ratings from Realclearpolitics](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html). A despised minority is in control of the silent majority. Quel irony. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/274 "2017-08-19T04:19:24Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Nope. The only hope for the country is to de-legitimize the Republican party. No modern country can survive a party that accepts hate as a guiding principle. If Trump is allowed to get away with a statement that equates Nazis with anti-Nazi protestors then it has become time to equate the Republican Party with Nazis. The idea is not a violent clash but to institutionalize shame against Republicans in the same way that shame has been institutionalized against Nazis. They are a symbol of evil that only evil people can embrace. The Republican Party has officially made itself into a symbol of evil and should be treated that way. > > I’ll back this up with [the composite ratings from Realclearpolitics](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html). A despised minority is in control of the silent majority. Quel irony. You do realize that different things can share some properties? For example a cat is not a fish. Yet they both share several properties. So, condemning the violence and the violent rhetoric of the nutty Antifa and the nutty Nazis is actually a legitimate view. Of course that doesn’t suit people’s political goals so they will obfuscate and use poor logic. But hell, even, Noam Chomsky sees Antifa as counterproductive. > **[Noam Chomsky: Antifa is a ‘major gift to the Right’ - Washington Examiner](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/1111392/noam-chomsky-antifa-is-a-major-gift-to-the-right/)** > > The left-wing "Antifa" movement is rising in prominence after clashing with white supremacists in Charlottesville, Va., but one progressive scholar says the anti-fascists feed the fire they seek to extinguish. "As for Antifa, it's a minuscule fringe... Of course some won’t be satisfied until we have our very own [Reign of Terror - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror). ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/275 "2017-08-19T07:19:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So, condemning the violence and the violent rhetoric of the nutty Antifa and the nutty Nazis is actually a legitimate view. Of course that doesn’t suit people’s political goals so they will obfuscate and use poor logic. But hell, even, Noam Chomsky sees Antifa as counterproductive. Please. Trump wants to have it both ways. Trump has said that there were good people on both sides, but then wants to parse out that some of the alt-right protesters were actually good people but then globally blames the left/alt-left counter-protestors for charging in with clubs and being violent. Here is a snippet of what Trump said: > [@Trump](#): > > TRUMP: No, no. There were people in that rally, and I looked the night before. If you look, they were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people – neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest and very legally protest, because you know – I don’t know if you know, they had a permit. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVc1hvD6mCw) is video shot by some of the Friday night marchers. They alternate between chanting “you will not replace us” (some media figures said they also heard “Jews will not replace us”), “one people, one nation, end immigration,” “anti-white,” and “blood and soil.” [Blood and soil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_and_Soil) is a well-known phrase specifically linked to Nazism. The person taking this particular video spots [Richard Spencer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_B._Spencer), an openly white supremacist, and lauds him as the speaker of the night, saying “this is why we’re here, everybody.” But, y’know, good people. For someone who occasionally protests that he didn’t vote for Trump (yet is considering voting to re-elect Trump to spite everyone and anyone who dares give voice in response to his weekly outrage), you sure do reflexively defend every utterance of the man. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/276 "2017-08-19T08:50:54Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t blindly defend or attack Trump. I didn’t even vote for the man. If he runs again I might depending on how violently his supporters are attacked. The third sentence is ambiguous. Are you saying that ‘If mainstream Americans start supporting Trump then I will go along’? Or that ‘Divisiness is a feature, not a bug. If Trump and his hate-filled supporters attract even more impassioned opposition _then_ I will be happy to join the pro-Trump train’ ? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/277 "2017-08-19T08:54:53Z")
> [@ganthet](#): > > Please. Trump wants to have it both ways. Trump has said that there were good people on both sides, but then wants to parse out that some of the alt-right protesters were actually good people but then globally blames the left/alt-left counter-protestors for charging in with clubs and being violent. Nitpick. Let’s not misquote Dear Leader. While he’s happy to prattle about ‘the Alt-Left’, IIRC when he mentions Alt-Right he accompanies it with an adjective like ‘so-called.’ ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/278 "2017-08-19T19:45:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You do realize that different things can share some properties? Yes, all the different flavors of Republicans share the property of hated of the Other as a core principle. Perhaps you didn’t notice this while you were busy voting for Obama but we on the left have been saying this for decades. The only difference now is the public visibility and a President who espouses it loudly and daily. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/279 "2017-08-19T19:56:22Z")
> [@ganthet](#): > > Here is a snippet of what Trump said: [They came charging in without a permit and were very, very violent!](http://i.imgur.com/rQ6n1U7.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/280 "2017-08-19T20:17:08Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [They came charging in without a permit and were very, very violent!](http://i.imgur.com/rQ6n1U7.jpg) Every time I see that line I start imagining a Mel Brooks/Zucker Brothers movie scene with a torch-n-club wielding mob stopping short and showing a little man at a little desk an official permit to be very very violent, before charging into the fray. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543.md?page=15)