# Did Trump Miscalculate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 13, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543 "2017-08-13T15:31:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/61 "2017-08-14T04:08:08Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > I think his comments on Charlottesville won’t hurt him much. But his denigration of Sessions and McConnell have and likely will continue to hurt him. I wish he’d tweet something that really disses Paul Ryan – that might make the trifecta that will bring him down. Don’t worry. Give it another week or so. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/62 "2017-08-14T04:16:58Z")
Even if there is a big break from Trump, how long will it last? They were supposed to be done supporting him after the pussy tape. That lasted about three days. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/63 "2017-08-14T10:03:36Z")
The GOP won’t break fully from Trump until he is unpopular enough within the party to put their own jobs at risk. You didn’t see GOP in congress support Nixon’s impeachment until it looked like they would be losing their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/64 "2017-08-14T11:40:27Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Get over it. He said the same old boilerplate that every politician does in these incidents (and was probably written for him), and _somehow_ managed not to blame the perps in the process. Imagine that. And did you actually hear him give his little speech? He was like a child being forced to apologize for something he wasn’t at all sorry for. Just a monotone expressionless reading of a statement, until he went off script with the “many, many sides” comment. Disgusting. I’m sure we’ll be seeing more of this neo-Nazi crap in the future. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/65 "2017-08-14T12:39:10Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I just checked and found no new response from Trump. He’s gotten away with everything, every single thing, up till now, so I hate to be the one who says “this time…” Nazis, though. I mean, Nazis. Think about that. Sorry, no. You’re wrong. Trumpists see “BLM” and “Antifa” and leftists in general as being equal in evil to the KKK; they find black people much scarier than Nazis. They’re quite in line with Trump. Of course, educated people like Marco Rubio will call out the evil of Nazis, but they’re not Trumpists, and will say one thing and vote with Trump anyway. Just go to Fox News to see what Trumpists think. Already they have a story up headlined “Trump condemns `white supremacists’” even though, in fact, Trump did nothing of the sort; other people have claimed he included white supremacists in his general comments. The opinion page piece right now is a column by Erick Erickson (what do parents do that, by the way? I went to school with a kid named Evan Evans. Do they not know how dumb that sounds?) that says, basically, that everyone is equyally at fault, and equates “social justiec warriors” with Nazis, and claims the Nazis got all their ideas from the left. Erickson clearly, unmistakably calls white supremacy a lie and a sin - once you get to the fourth or fifth paragraph - and then (I am not making this up) suggests that Google firing some rabbgle-rousing malcontent over an offensive email is just as bad. Trump equating Nazis with Black Lives Matter and such is perfectly in line with Trumpist opinion. [QUOTE=Quartz] And you have not answered the question about violent counter-protesters. Were there any? [/QUOTE] Look, let’s get this out of the way right now: The coutner-protesters did engage in some violence. That is beyond dispute. However, 1. They engaged in far less violence than the Nazis, as one would expect. 2. They didn’t murder anyone, or from all accounts try to. The Nazis did. 3. The confrontations were started by the Nazis. On a different tack, and completely IMHO: if one walks around waving a Nazi flag, that person is saying “I am an enemy of America and the human race and I wish harm upon you,” and I have no sympathy for such a person. That doesn’t mean they SHOULD be attacked; the rule of law is master of all and must be respected. But I don’t feel the slightest bit sorry for a Nazi who gets hurt. They want to hurt everyone else, so they’ve got it coming. I stress I am not advocating violence, just saying I don’t feel sorry for Nazis who are violently treated. If Bill the Nazi has his face smashed with a wrench, I think he deserved it. IF he didn’t want facial reconstructyion surgery, well, he should not have joined the side of evil. **But the wrench-swinger should still be arrested and punished,** because once that sort of thing is permitted everything will fall apart. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/66 "2017-08-14T13:00:50Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I agree that everything about the alt right should be strongly condemned as should any form of bigotry. But as far as violence goes I would guess the left has the right beat by at least 100 to 1 if you want to count physical confrontations with minor injuries. The left has been far more oppressive of the first amendment rights of the far right by a very large margin. They have openly engaged in all sorts of oppressive and intimidating activities again by a very large margin. This time it looks like the alt right might be more at fault. Maybe they came prepared, not excusing the murders that took place, he will and should be punished. Total bullshit. Right wing radio fantasy-land stuff. Yes, there are assholes that identify as being on the left, but it’s total bullshit that most political violence or most attempts at free speech restriction come from them. Some comes from them, and some comes from assholes that identify as being on the right. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/67 "2017-08-14T13:10:14Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sorry, no. You’re wrong. Trumpists see “BLM” and “Antifa” and leftists in general as being equal in evil to the KKK; they find black people much scarier than Nazis. They’re quite in line with Trump. > > Of course, educated people like Marco Rubio will call out the evil of Nazis, but they’re not Trumpists, and will say one thing and vote with Trump anyway. > > Just go to Fox News to see what Trumpists think. Already they have a story up headlined “Trump condemns `white supremacists’” even though, in fact, Trump did nothing of the sort; other people have claimed he included white supremacists in his general comments. The opinion page piece right now is a column by Erick Erickson (what do parents do that, by the way? I went to school with a kid named Evan Evans. Do they not know how dumb that sounds?) that says, basically, that everyone is equyally at fault, and equates “social justiec warriors” with Nazis, and claims the Nazis got all their ideas from the left. Erickson clearly, unmistakably calls white supremacy a lie and a sin - once you get to the fourth or fifth paragraph - and then (I am not making this up) suggests that Google firing some rabbgle-rousing malcontent over an offensive email is just as bad. > > Trump equating Nazis with Black Lives Matter and such is perfectly in line with Trumpist opinion. > Look, let’s get this out of the way right now: > > The coutner-protesters did engage in some violence. That is beyond dispute. > > However, > > 1. They engaged in far less violence than the Nazis, as one would expect. > 2. They didn’t murder anyone, or from all accounts try to. The Nazis did. > 3. The confrontations were started by the Nazis. > > On a different tack, and completely IMHO: if one walks around waving a Nazi flag, that person is saying “I am an enemy of America and the human race and I wish harm upon you,” and I have no sympathy for such a person. That doesn’t mean they SHOULD be attacked; the rule of law is master of all and must be respected. But I don’t feel the slightest bit sorry for a Nazi who gets hurt. They want to hurt everyone else, so they’ve got it coming. > > I stress I am not advocating violence, just saying I don’t feel sorry for Nazis who are violently treated. If Bill the Nazi has his face smashed with a wrench, I think he deserved it. IF he didn’t want facial reconstructyion surgery, well, he should not have joined the side of evil. **But the wrench-swinger should still be arrested and punished,** because once that sort of thing is permitted everything will fall apart. Left wing agitators have been attacking Trump supporters and those who want to hear speakers at college campuses. Left wing agitators have been threatening violence at gatherings of their ideological opponents. That may be one of the reasons people are bringing their Renaissance Faire stuff to these protests. Furthermore, your not advocating violence is anything but. Now if you think those sort of tactics are helpful, by all means continue. I think they are counterproductive which is why I advocate let people say what they will and just ignore them. People can’t help but to get all worked over stuff that if ignored would be damn near inconsequential. And what in the world makes one a Trumpist? Dude got a lot of votes. I guess the US has tens of millions Trumpists? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/68 "2017-08-14T14:57:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I stress I am not advocating violence, just saying I don’t feel sorry for Nazis who are violently treated. If Bill the Nazi has his face smashed with a wrench, I think he deserved it. IF he didn’t want facial reconstructyion surgery, well, he should not have joined the side of evil. **But the wrench-swinger should still be arrested and punished,** because once that sort of thing is permitted everything will fall apart. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/69 "2017-08-14T15:06:52Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And what in the world makes one a Trumpist? Dude got a lot of votes. I guess the US has tens of millions Trumpists? Sad, but true. We’re probably doomed. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/70 "2017-08-14T15:06:57Z")
It seems to me that according to the alt-Reich, fascists’ free speech rights are being trampled, because the Left isn’t allowed to exercise their free speech right to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/71 "2017-08-14T16:06:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Left wing agitators have been attacking Trump supporters and those who want to hear speakers at college campuses. Left wing agitators have been threatening violence at gatherings of their ideological opponents. That may be one of the reasons people are bringing their Renaissance Faire stuff to these protests. [FACT CHECK: Is Left-Wing Violence Rising?](http://www.npr.org/2017/06/16/533255619/fact-check-is-left-wing-violence-rising) > [@](#): > > But those who track extremism say that while there are a few far-left groups that raise red flags, their numbers remain small… > > “In the past 10 years when you look at murders committed by domestic extremists in the United States of all types, right-wing extremists are responsible for about 74 percent of those murders,” [Why Does the Far Right Hold a Near-Monopoly on Political Violence?](https://www.thenation.com/article/why-does-the-far-right-hold-a-near-monopoly-on-political-violence/) > [@](#): > > Which raises an important question: If red and blue America fear and loathe one another equally, and a similar number believe that political violence is acceptable, then why is there so much more of it on the fringes of the right? > > Part of the answer lies in a clear difference between right and left: For the past 40 years, Republicans, parroting the gun-rights movement, have actively promoted the idea that firearms are a vital bulwark against government tyranny. [Homegrown Terrorism and Why the Threat of Right-Wing Extremism Is Rising in America](http://www.newsweek.com/homegrown-terrorism-rising-threat-right-wing-extremism-619724) > [@](#): > > The iceberg model of political extremism, initially developed by Ehud Shprinzak, an Israeli political scientist, can illuminate these dynamics. > > Murders and other violent attacks perpetrated by U.S. far-right extremists compose the visible tip of an iceberg. The rest of this iceberg is under water and out of sight. It includes hundreds of attacks every year that damage property and intimidate communities, such as the recent attempted burning of an African-American family’s garage in Schodack, New York. The garage was also defaced with racist graffiti. > > Data my team collected at the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point show that the significant growth in far-right violence in recent years is happening at the base of the iceberg. [A Dark and Constant Rage: 25 Years of Right-Wing Terrorism in the United States](https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/dark-constant-rage-25-years-of-right-wing-terrorism-in-united-states) > [@](#): > > Most right-wing extremists in the United States fall into one of two broad umbrella movements or spheres: white supremacists and anti-government extremists. An overwhelming majority of the terror incidents listed here (85%) were committed by adherents of one of these two spheres. Moreover, the number of acts attributed to each sphere is almost identical: 64 terror incidents are related to white supremacists, while 63 are related to anti-government extremists. Many people, when picturing right-wing terrorism, tend to think of white supremacists, but anti-government extremists such as militia groups and sovereign citizens pose just as much of a threat. [U.S. Hate Crimes Up 20 Percent in 2016, Fueled by Election Campaign: Report](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-hate-crimes-20-percent-2016-fueled-election-campaign-n733306) > [@](#): > > Overall, there were 1,037 incidents, a 23.3 percent increase from the previous year in the nine areas researched: New York; Washington; Chicago; Philadelphia; Montgomery County, Maryland; Columbus, Ohio; Seattle; Long Beach, California; and Cincinnati. [FBI: Hate crimes spike, most sharply against Muslims](http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/14/us/fbi-hate-crime-report-muslims/index.html) > [@](#): > > The bureau’s Uniform Crime Reporting Program data showed 5,850 hate crime incidents reported to police in 2015, a 6.8% increase from the 5,479 incidents reported in 2014. > > The report recorded 5,818 “single-bias” incidents, incidents in which one or more offense types are motivated by the same bias. Of those, 59.2% were motivated by a racial, ethnic and/or ancestry bias; 19.7% by a religious bias; 17.7% by a sexual orientation bias; and 3.3% by a gender identity, disability or gender bias. > > Hate crimes against minorities other than Muslims also increased, according to the report. > > Anti-Jewish hate crimes rose 9%, anti-black hate crimes went up by almost 8%, and anti-LGBT hate crimes increased by nearly 5%, while anti-Latino hate crimes remained steady. Yes, most of these cites come from left-leaning sources. And? Nobody in America can honestly believe that right-leaning sources would touch this. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/72 "2017-08-14T16:08:55Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I agree that everything about the alt right should be strongly condemned as should any form of bigotry. But as far as violence goes I would guess the left has the right beat by at least 100 to 1 if you want to count physical confrontations with minor injuries. The left has been far more oppressive of the first amendment rights of the far right by a very large margin. They have openly engaged in all sorts of oppressive and intimidating activities again by a very large margin. This time it looks like the alt right might be more at fault. Maybe they came prepared, not excusing the murders that took place, he will and should be punished. What time frame and location are you considering here? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/73 "2017-08-14T16:36:18Z")
A rally, by its very nature, is an attempt to demonstrate power and resolve. Most rallies are an attempt to influence through numbers. See how many people are on my side? See how my side outnumbers yours? See how powerful we are? If a rally embraces the symbols of the Nazis, the rally becomes an attempt to demonstrate power and resolve against Nazi targets. See how many people are embracing these Nazi symbols? See how my side outnumbers yours? See how powerful we are? In some ways, saying people protesting are attempting to intimidate and oppress is saying “You are attempting to intimidate me away from attempting to intimidate.” Like complaining that a shop owner pulled a gun on an armed robber. That said, I think we need to do more to preserve the physical safety of people rallying. And I think we should individually do as much as we can to avoid rhetoric that attempts to cast Nazis and their ilk as “inhuman” or “animals” or “vermin.” They are humans. They are not something unlike us. They are just like us, only wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Vallejo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Rick\_Vallejo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Vallejo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/74 "2017-08-14T17:00:53Z")
Famous last words I am afraid. We were pretty confident in October. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/75 "2017-08-14T17:15:17Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The confrontations were started by the Nazis. Some of whom have started in on the “we were only defending ourselves” crap. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/76 "2017-08-14T17:31:29Z")
To miscalculate would require one to calculate. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/77 "2017-08-14T18:01:15Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > And did you actually hear him give his little speech? He was like a child being forced to apologize for something he wasn’t at all sorry for. Just a monotone expressionless reading of a statement, until he went off script with the “many, many sides” comment. Yeah, I saw it. Two or three hours after the fact, while people from both sides of the aisle were calling for a statement, and even freaking _Melania_ had tweeted about it (which, to be fair, was understandable given her stated crusade against bullying, except where her husband is involved). Yet someone who can tweet within minutes about a news report he doesn’t like managed to wait that long to say anything at all because he was so busy on his ‘working vacation?’ Personally, I think he ordered his sycophants to come up with a statement that specifically didn’t blame the white supremacists of his voter base, and it took that long to work it out. I think the first ‘on many sides’ was actually part of the prepared statement, and only the second one was extemporaneous, for emphasis. And then, two days later, he comes out with a band-aid because everyone else is yelling about it. This very much reminds me of the David Duke support thing that started with Jake Tapper’s interview. > [@](#): > > Disgusting. I’m sure we’ll be seeing more of this neo-Nazi crap in the future. We will. They’re planning a rally in Texas as the next stage in Open Carry Tour 2017. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/78 "2017-08-14T18:10:18Z")
[So this morning he has made a new statement](http://www.npr.org/2017/08/14/543418468/trump-calls-out-kkk-white-supremacists-after-charlottesville-racism-is-evil?refresh=true): [QUOTE=45] Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis and white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans [/QUOTE] The man is incapable of making a single, unambiguous statement of condemnation. The inclusion of “other hate groups” gives everyone on the alt-right the opportunity to say that he was again saying that both sides were at fault. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/79 "2017-08-14T18:59:49Z")
Who wrote that for him? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543/80 "2017-08-14T19:07:41Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > Around 35-40 percent of Americans are either white supremacists themselves, or are willing to tolerate white supremacists as long as they get tax cuts and religious zealots on the Supreme Court. That number shoots up to just over 50% of the members of Congress. Cites, please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-trump-miscalculate/793543.md?page=5)