# Did unions destroy Detroit? (Auto industry) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 13, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264 "2014-02-13T17:18:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/61 "2014-02-15T16:39:18Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Detroit prospered before the unions not because of them. Detroit population grew 468% from 1900 to 1940. In 1941 Ford was the last of the big three to sign a contract with the UAW. Since then Detroit has lost 56% of it 1940 population. > It is more accurate to say Detroit was like a magnet that attracted jobs and people before unionization and like a magnet that repelled jobs and people after unionization. You seem to be ignoring the huge technology changes that occurred after 1940, basically eliminating the need for 3/4 of the workforce… ---
**Author:** ![fishman35](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@fishman35](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fishman35)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/62 "2016-10-15T06:01:39Z")
The state the Volkswagon plant is in is Tennessee. The Union has been voted down several times. As far as Detroit, it is not one thing for sure, but unions played a BIG part of it. It all starts with American expectations and ego. My mother was a Teamster, (not by choice), when she worked at a very large trucking company. When I was 16, I drove to see her at work during a major strike. After they threw bricks at my car because they thought I was a scab and then figured it out, I asked my mom why the dockworkers were striking. Her answer: “More money”. Now I knew most of these guys and they were making $16.00 per hr. to drive a forklift. (About 39.00 per hr today). Many of these cats did not even graduate high school. I was furious. She said “they will get it too”, and they did. Why do so many in this county think they should get $40.00 per hour for jobs that require very little brain or body power? I know guys who work at the GM Saturn plant here in TN that get $36.00 per hour to press a button every 4 minutes. Not only is that sickening, but that cost has to be passed on, either to the consumer, or use cheaper parts, (seen any GM recalls lately?) :eek: Most of these line jobs are about $14.00 per hour. And if you say “I cannot survive on $14.00”, come see my 12 restaurant employees doing just fine on that. My last job as a computer engineer for a Fortune 50 company payed my $39.00 per hour, but it was all brains, and I went to college for it. I actually earned that money. But Bubba on the fender line who presses the plastic pegs together is $14.00, 16.00 tops. Sorry, but until you own your own business, you have no right to even have an opinion. Poor people do not employ anyone. People like me do, and we have to battle employment, corporate, state, unemployment, workers comp, etc. taxes and fees. At the end of the day, we have to make very tough choices, and it is sometimes amazing we can pay anyone after the government gets theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/63 "2016-10-15T14:28:20Z")
Zombie looking for Brains. > [@fishman35](#): > > Sorry, but until you own your own business, you have no right to even have an opinion. A pretty nasty zombie too. I wonder what could be going on in the world that would have brought you here to tell us that we have no right to our opinions? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/64 "2016-10-15T15:25:51Z")
Just think what fishman 1-34 must be like. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/65 "2016-10-15T22:01:59Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Just think what fishman 1-34 must be like. :rolleyes: “Not entirely successful.” They still making Saturns in Tennessee? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/66 "2016-10-15T22:42:23Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > They still making Saturns in Tennessee? They ain’t still making Saturns anywhere. But I checked when I read fishman’s post and that plant is still operating as part of General Motors. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/67 "2016-10-15T23:26:59Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Unions don’t act that way. People of good will work for both labor and management. I know of one case where a union was considering moving in to a new business and the owner walked them through his plans for the next few years, and it wouldn’t allow the union to collect any money, so they bugged out and ignored the workers asking for a union. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/68 "2016-10-15T23:37:18Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I know of one case where a union was considering moving in to a new business and the owner walked them through his plans for the next few years, and it wouldn’t allow the union to collect any money, so they bugged out and ignored the workers asking for a union. Cool story bro. :rolleyes: :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/69 "2016-10-16T02:53:57Z")
Isn’t it sad when workers wanting to make more money get in the way of owners wanting to make more money? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/70 "2016-10-16T18:34:00Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Isn’t it sad when workers wanting to make more money get in the way of owners wanting to make more money? Almost as sad as how much industrial work is done overseas now because of the lack of ability to understand global competition. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/71 "2016-10-16T21:50:44Z")
Big Auto made the cars it wanted, not what American Consumers wanted. Note the design of GM’s HQ–the\* designers & accountants worked in one half \*of the building, _Upper management in the other._ **There were no doorways between the two** –you had to leave the building, go through a security gate, & get permission to go up the elevators, to see anybody in Management. This does not build teamwork. But it does create an out-of-touch Management group. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/72 "2016-10-17T18:23:58Z")
Corporations and unions are more alike than different. Both are organizations run my a relatively small group of people. As a rule, as organizations grow and the people who run them wield more power (in reality and/or in their own mind), the main objective becomes staying big and powerful - at all costs. It holds true from HOA’s and PTA’s to governments to the private sector. Want to blame something? Blame human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/73 "2016-10-17T19:33:22Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Corporations and unions are more alike than different. Both are organizations run my a relatively small group of people. As a rule, as organizations grow and the people who run them wield more power (in reality and/or in their own mind), the main objective becomes staying big and powerful - at all costs. It holds true from HOA’s and PTA’s to governments to the private sector. > > Want to blame something? Blame human nature. Unions are based on the premise that labor and management are adversaries. (That doesn’t have to be true, but isn’t always false, either.) Each side is trying to get the most that it can for those who are in it. And if you believe that to be the downfall of the auto industry, neither group is more at fault than the other. If you believe it had more to do with design and marketing, blame the designers and marketers. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/74 "2016-10-18T14:23:38Z")
Your first sentence is true - unions started to protect workers from management. Your second sentence is also true - Both sides now want the most for the people “in it”. The thing with human nature, though, is that the definition of “in it” tends to change as an organization grows. It moves from “all members” to “those in power”. Once in power, people tend to do anything possible to stay in power. We’ve all heard Lord Acton’s 1887 quote “All power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely”. That has been scientifically proven to be true. An [example](http://www.economist.com/node/15328544) of some studies: > [@](#): > > These results, then, suggest that the powerful do indeed behave hypocritically, condemning the transgressions of others more than they condemn their own. Regardless of how an organization begins - company, union, HOA, PTA, social clique, etc. - once a person or select group in “in charge”, the tendency is to see themselves as right and deserving even at the expense of others in the group. John Adams said to Thomas Jefferson: > [@](#): > > Power always sincerely, conscientiously, de très bon foi, believes itself right. Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. How does this relate more precisely to corporation and unions, and Detroit specifically? Power not only corrupts people, it [corrupts decision making](http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/03/02/power-tends-to-corrupt-decision-making/35498.html): > [@](#): > > “Power is an elixir, a self-esteem enhancing drug that surges through the brain telling you how great your ideas are,” said Galinsky. “This leaves the powerful vulnerable to making overconfident decisions that lead them to dead-end alleys.” As I said, all organizations are subject to this because humans run them. Throw in a little “us vs. them”, though, and you magnify the results exponentially. Now it becomes not only a battle of who is in power within the organization, it’s who is more powerful _between_ the organizations. It then becomes all important to stay more powerful than your rival, who is often casts as “the enemy”. For a timely example, see “partisan politics”. As I said before, blame human nature. It **is** the root cause. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/75 "2016-10-18T14:47:01Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Markets change all the time, succesful companies change with them. Companies that are saddled with uncooperative unions find it harder to change. Giant companies _always_ find it hard to change. The Big Three came close to collapse in the 1990s-2000s because they were gigantic monoliths who couldn’t adapt to the needs of changing markets, not because of unions. How much do you think they spent selling identical cars under different badges? It’s hardly a coincidence that all three are healthier now that they’ve consolidated their brands and dispensed with (at least to a degree) the ridiculous nameplate swapping. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/76 "2016-10-18T15:36:54Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Your first sentence is true - unions started to protect workers from management. Your second sentence is also true - Both sides now want the most for the people “in it”. The thing with human nature, though, is that the definition of “in it” tends to change as an organization grows. It moves from “all members” to “those in power”. Once in power, people tend to do anything possible to stay in power. We’ve all heard Lord Acton’s 1887 quote “All power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely”. That has been scientifically proven to be true. An [example](http://www.economist.com/node/15328544) of some studies: > > Regardless of how an organization begins - company, union, HOA, PTA, social clique, etc. - once a person or select group in “in charge”, the tendency is to see themselves as right and deserving even at the expense of others in the group. John Adams said to Thomas Jefferson: > How does this relate more precisely to corporation and unions, and Detroit specifically? Power not only corrupts people, it [corrupts decision making](http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/03/02/power-tends-to-corrupt-decision-making/35498.html): > As I said, all organizations are subject to this because humans run them. Throw in a little “us vs. them”, though, and you magnify the results exponentially. Now it becomes not only a battle of who is in power within the organization, it’s who is more powerful _between_ the organizations. It then becomes all important to stay more powerful than your rival, who is often casts as “the enemy”. For a timely example, see “partisan politics”. > > As I said before, blame human nature. It **is** the root cause. People in power seek to preserve that power, so what? I don’t see how that leads to some sort of fundamental breakdown in the system. A union president wants to stay a union president. The best way for him to do that is to negotiate a good contract for the union members so they’ll vote for him to remain president. His interest (retaining power) coincides with the members’ interest (getting a good contract). Similarly, if the CEO of a car company wants to remain CEO, his best bet is to maximize profit and minimize costs (including labor). Labor and management are still fulfilling the roles I described, trying to get the most for their side. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/77 "2016-10-18T15:40:53Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > **Corporations and unions are more alike than different. Both are organizations run my a relatively small group of people.** As a rule, as organizations grow and the people who run them wield more power (in reality and/or in their own mind), the main objective becomes staying big and powerful - at all costs. It holds true from HOA’s and PTA’s to governments to the private sector. > > Want to blame something? Blame human nature. (bolding mine) This is stupid and false. Unions are democratic organizations and as such are run by their membership. Corporations are not democratic organizations and as such are not run by their members (employees, customers, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/78 "2016-10-18T15:43:18Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > People in power seek to preserve that power, so what? I don’t see how that leads to some sort of fundamental breakdown in the system. > > A union president wants to stay a union president. The best way for him to do that is to negotiate a good contract for the union members so they’ll vote for him to remain president. His interest (retaining power) coincides with the members’ interest (getting a good contract). Similarly, if the CEO of a car company wants to remain CEO, his best bet is to maximize profit and minimize costs (including labor). Labor and management are still fulfilling the roles I described, trying to get the most for their side. Seemingly logical, but fundamentally wrong. Read the studies. Power corrupts, period. Unions didn’t ‘kill’ Detroit, auto manufacturers didn’t ‘kill’ Detroit. People on both sides, corrupted by power, killed Detroit. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/79 "2016-10-18T15:46:30Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Cool story bro. > > :rolleyes: :dubious: Cool retort bro. :rolleyes: :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264/80 "2016-10-18T19:30:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > This is stupid and false. Unions are democratic organizations and as such are run by their membership. Corporations are not democratic organizations and as such are not run by their members (employees, customers, etc.). Unions aren’t run by their membership any more than the USA is run by its citizens. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-unions-destroy-detroit-auto-industry/681264.md?page=5)