# Did US really propose "Operation Northwoods"?!? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 2, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121 "2013-02-02T15:07:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bob\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@Bob\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_X)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/61 "2013-02-06T04:57:33Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > Not to hijack the thread, but it’s far more likely the _Liberty_ was taken out to prevent the US from monitoring the IDF push into Gaza and Golan until the forces were fully in control. It is important to remember that the US was not allied with Israel at the time. Although Truman recognized Israel immediately upon its independence declaration, the US imposed an embargo on arms sales to Israel, but not to Arab countries, which lasted until the Kennedy administration, and even then arms for Israel were matched one-for-one with Arab arms sales; Eisenhower intervened in favor of Egypt during the 1956 Suez crisis even though England and France were on Israel’s side (caused some serious ruptures with England and France). In 1967 LBJ pledged to be “neutral in thought, word, and deed” but was suspected, because of his Texas oilmen connections, to be pro-Arab. It was foolish for him to send a spy ship into the war zone without notification to anyone, and Israel either thought it was an Egyptian ship flying a false flag, or that the Liberty was relaying intelligence to Egypt (and for all we know, it may have been). ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/62 "2013-02-06T06:43:14Z")
I wonder what any of us would do if we had a choice of randomly killing an American soldier or 100, or allowing WW III. I myself, God forbid, even if my closest family member were to die, would do so. I think. Politicians and military types get paid to do just such things (although usually without the certainty of the family member’s death) for our benefit, you know, and do so every day. Me personally putting a gun to random people’s heads… ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/63 "2013-02-06T14:02:18Z")
> [@doubled](#): > > Oh, ok, so instead of murdering innocent american civilians to invent a fake excuse for a war, they’re murdering innocent cuban civilians to invent a fake excuse for a war. Well, that’s OK then! I take back my objections. Again you’re insisting on their plans requiring “murder” when they say nothing of the sort. Sinking a ship doesn’t automatically condemn the people on board to death. And, if you read the whole document, they make reference several times to having credible witnesses to rouse public ire. Who would be the witnesses in this case? The Cubans, of course, so the plan only works if they plan to rescue them, so they can be put in front of the media. > [@](#): > > Come on, look at many of the other points described in the document (“Blow up ammunition inside the [US Guantamo military] base; start fires”, “Lob mortar shells from outside the of base onto base”, “Sabotage ships in harbor; large fires – napthalene”, “A ‘Remember the Maine’ incident”, “Blow up a US ship in Guantamo Bay”, etc) – you really think those wouldn’t involve american deaths? It would look mighty suspicious if they ordered the crew of a US warship to 100% evacuate the ship/base shortly before a bomb went off. Even if they did evacuate the soldiers, what about the fire fighters sent to put out the blaze, or all the people who could die if the fire spreads? First off, the military blows up lots of stuff in practice all the time, without killing anyone. It’s part of their job. Second, yes, if you look at the plans laid out, every example you cite for blowing up ships and the like makes explicit reference to drone ships and drone planes. In fact, it’s quite remarkable how far they go to avoid any actual fatalities. There is one section dealing with false flag terrorist attacks in Florida, where they allow that in extreme cases, they might go so far at to “actually wound” some people. Check that - merely wounding people was labelled an extreme. > [@](#): > > ``` > But let's say you're right and all the deaths in this plan to invent a fake excuse to start a war were just fake deaths. Even so, they're inventing a fake excuse to start a war! You don't have a problem with that? The constitution says only congress can declare war, but you are not horrified by the idea of the CIA/military forcing a war on their own? > > ``` And here you go, like any good CTist, conjuring up notions of what I “don’t have a problem with”, just because I’m citing the actual details of the actual report, and not entertaining the common misconceptions of what this plan entailed. No, of course I’m not okay with them using false flag events to create a war. And neither were the people who weer in charge at the time. That’s why they rejected this plan, in its entirety. But the point here is that, even a document that clearly shows that someone in authority gave serious consideration to such a plan just isn’t enough for the CTist crowd. They still need to sex it up with lurid tales of murder. Why aren’t the simple facts of the case enough for them? Because then, they’d have to also acknowledge the simple fact that this plan **was** rejected. That doesn’t feed into their narrative of the Cartoonish Super Villainy they want the government to be engaged in. Instead of seeing this document as what it is - that is, evidence of how pretty whacked out the Cold War got for some people in power at the time - they insist on making it a part of their own fantasy. So really, for those of us in the reality based community, this is a fascinating document, in that it highlights the insanity of both some of the leaders of that era, and the Conspiracy Theory mongers of today. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/64 "2013-02-06T17:06:36Z")
> [@Bob\_X](#): > > It is important to remember that the US was not allied with Israel at the time. Although Truman recognized Israel immediately upon its independence declaration, the US imposed an embargo on arms sales to Israel, but not to Arab countries, which lasted until the Kennedy administration, and even then arms for Israel were matched one-for-one with Arab arms sales; Eisenhower intervened in favor of Egypt during the 1956 Suez crisis even though England and France were on Israel’s side (caused some serious ruptures with England and France). In 1967 LBJ pledged to be “neutral in thought, word, and deed” but was suspected, because of his Texas oilmen connections, to be pro-Arab. It was foolish for him to send a spy ship into the war zone without notification to anyone, and Israel either thought it was an Egyptian ship flying a false flag, or that the Liberty was relaying intelligence to Egypt (and for all we know, it may have been). Yes, don’t forget in 1956 the Israeli/French/British takeover of Suez fizzled because the Americans refused to back it… While, by 1973 they were preparing to blow up the world to defend Israel. And, of course, as I said before - if Saddam Hussein’s air force had fired a missile into an American naval vessel, killed a few sailors in the process, would the president have let it go, or immediately gone all apeshit and fired volleys of missiles and dropped bombs on Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/65 "2013-02-06T17:11:21Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > See “Bay of Pigs” > > … > > Then Kennedy became President instead of Nixon. Kennedy wanted nothing to do with such a plan. > But he had a boatload of Cubans who, if simply told to “go home, no revolution after all”, whould spread the word that the US had betrayed them. The US wasn’t particularly loved in Latin America anyway. > > … > > You’re JFK - aside from hating Eisenhower (and esp Nixon - this kind of mess was something he’d come up with)? You have to do something with them, and you sure as hell ain’t going to bomb a Soviet client. You mean the Eisenhower who warned the country, on his way out, about the evils of the military industrial complex? You mean the Kennedy who got the US deep into Vietnam? Or the Nixon who finally got them out of a war he did not get the US into? I think nobody in government had/has a lock on realpolitick vs. gobal strategies. They are all partly guilty… ---
**Author:** ![FrankJBN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@FrankJBN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrankJBN)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/66 "2013-02-06T18:18:42Z")
As noted by others above: I don’t see any plans within the linked to documents to kill American citizens. Not even sure any intent to kill refugees. As there are page and pargeraph numbers could you cite to specific location? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/67 "2013-02-06T22:51:45Z")
How can such a plan be considered so inthinkable when the current US administration defends its right to drone-kill its civilans outside of the battlefield without any warrants? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/68 "2013-02-06T23:21:11Z")
The CIA did plan to exhibit a US Airforce plane that had gunfire damage-the plan was to blame this on Castro’s forces, and use it as justification for a punitive attack on Castro. The CIA has come up with some goofy schemes, but the Bay of Pigs takes the cake-no US fighter cover, wrong times used by invading forces, attack/invasion landing in a swamp (easily defended), and no backup plan. those CIA spooks were real geniuses!:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/69 "2013-02-07T00:10:09Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > How can such a plan be considered so inthinkable when the current US administration defends its right to drone-kill its civilans outside of the battlefield without any warrants? In case you’re serious, the current US administration [defends its right](http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/04/16843014-exclusive-justice-department-memo-reveals-legal-case-for-drone-strikes-on-americans?lite) to “drone-kill” its civilians based on the claim that they pose an imminent threat to the security of the USA or have been recently involved in such activities. Whether that is justifiable or not, some might consider it slightly different than deliberately killing innocent civilians as part of a false flag operation. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@Bob\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_X)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/70 "2013-02-07T04:16:20Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Yes, don’t forget in 1956 the Israeli/French/British takeover of Suez fizzled because the Americans refused to back it… While, by 1973 they were preparing to blow up the world to defend Israel. > > And, of course, as I said before - if Saddam Hussein’s air force had fired a missile into an American naval vessel, killed a few sailors in the process, would the president have let it go, or immediately gone all apeshit and fired volleys of missiles and dropped bombs on Iraq? The North Koreans did not only kill a few sailors in the process of attacking a spy ship, but captured the ship and held the rest of the crew hostage for a year around the same time-- and no, we did not go apeshit and fire volleys of missiles and bombs. LBJ was in an even weaker position with regard to the Liberty than with regard to the Pueblo, because while spying on the North Koreans was something he had to technically deny, but was still quite acceptable to the public, spying on the Israelis was something he politically could not admit to having done, since the public thought the Israeli victory in the 6-day war was terrific, and the pro-Arab position became completely untenable. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/71 "2013-02-07T13:57:41Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > In case you’re serious, the current US administration [defends its right](http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/04/16843014-exclusive-justice-department-memo-reveals-legal-case-for-drone-strikes-on-americans?lite) to “drone-kill” its civilians based on the claim that they pose an imminent threat to the security of the USA or have been recently involved in such activities. Whether that is justifiable or not, some might consider it slightly different than deliberately killing innocent civilians as part of a false flag operation. The administration defends its right to bypass the constitution for convenience. It’s the same thing qualitatively. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/72 "2013-02-07T16:20:27Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I’m sorry, but this is nonsense. There is no evidence that the IDF knew it was an American ship at any time during the attack. Uumm… simply and utterly - NOT TRUE! > [@Haaretz Article](#): > > The Israel Air Force warplanes and Israel Navy warships that attacked the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967, at the height of the Six-Day War, were aware that the vessel was an American spy ship, according to new testimony published Thursday in the Chicago Tribune. > > \*\*The report stated that the U.S. National Security Agency - to which the intelligence gathering ship belonged - was able to intercept IAF communications according to which, at some stage, the pilots identified the ship as American but were nonetheless instructed to push ahead with the attack. \*\* > > “They said, ‘We’ve got him in the zero,’” Kirby was quoted as saying, “whatever that meant - I guess the sights or something. And then one of them said, ‘Can you see the flag?’ They said ‘Yes, it’s U.S, it’s U.S.’ They said it several times, so there wasn’t any doubt in anybody’s mind that they knew it.” > **[Israeli communications said to prove IAF knew Liberty was U.S. ship](https://www.haaretz.com/2007-10-04/ty-article/israeli-communications-said-to-prove-iaf-knew-liberty-was-u-s-ship/0000017f-e160-d38f-a57f-e772c2610000)** > > Chicago Tribune: Transcripts of IAF communications show pilots who attacked Liberty in Six-Day War saw a U.S. flag. Can we now stop BS, please? You already caused enough damage with biased and intentionally misleading contribution. You are now being exposed as a fraud and should probably drop from the thread. > [@Dissonance](#): > > A full investigation was conducted. Cite? > [@Dissonance](#): > > Again, if they discovered at some point that they were attacking a US ship what possible reason would they have to continue attacking it? That’s what’s subject to discussion and everyone can offer their view. ---
**Author:** ![FrankJBN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@FrankJBN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrankJBN)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/73 "2013-02-07T16:21:49Z")
Enemy combatants do not have constitutional rights, US citizens or not. This situation doesn’t rise to anywhere near the murder of Fred hampton. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@Bob\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_X)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/74 "2013-02-07T17:21:51Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Uumm… simply and utterly - NOT TRUE! > > [Israeli Communications Said to Prove IAF Knew Liberty Was U.S. Ship - Haaretz Com - Haaretz.com](http://www.haaretz.com/news/israeli-communications-said-to-prove-iaf-knew-liberty-was-u-s-ship-1.230486) It is not disputed that at some point the Israeli air force saw that the ship was flying a US flag. Whether they knew it was a US ship or continued to believe that it was an Egyptian ship flying a false flag has been disputed. It is also disputed whether the Liberty was sending intelligence to the Egyptian side: the Johnson Administration’s unwillingness ever to open up about what the Liberty was doing there in the first place has left that suspicion open. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/75 "2013-02-07T17:32:16Z")
> **[USS Stark incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_incident)** > > Iraqi invasion of Iran (1980) > Stalemate (1981) > Iranian offensives to free Iranian territory (1981–82) > [@](#): > > The USS Stark incident occurred during the Iran–Iraq War on May 17, 1987, when an Iraqi jet aircraft fired missiles at the American frigate USS Stark. Thirty-seven United States Navy personnel were killed and twenty-one others were wounded. The Iraqi government later apologized for the attack. One commentator suggested that the USA’s wimpy response to this was what convinced Saddam he could get away with taking over Kuwait. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/76 "2013-02-07T18:29:58Z")
> [@Bob\_X](#): > > It is not disputed that at some point the Israeli air force saw that the ship was flying a US flag. Whether they knew it was a US ship or continued to believe that it was an Egyptian ship flying a false flag has been disputed. It is also disputed whether the Liberty was sending intelligence to the Egyptian side: the Johnson Administration’s unwillingness ever to open up about what the Liberty was doing there in the first place has left that suspicion open. Oh, I’m sure if Israelis were able to confirm with ship’s captain that it was indeed US ship you could find some improbable storyline to shred even that evidence. :o ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/77 "2013-02-07T18:47:36Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > [USS Stark incident - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_incident) > One commentator suggested that the USA’s wimpy response to this was what convinced Saddam he could get away with taking over Kuwait. This commentator would suggest that nothing demonstrates cruel willingness than shooting down civilian aircraft with 290 onboard and then lying about circumstances - > **[Iran Air Flight 655](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655)** > > Iraqi invasion of Iran (1980) > Stalemate (1981) > Iranian offensives to free Iranian territory (1981–82) ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@Bob\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_X)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/78 "2013-02-07T19:29:11Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Oh, I’m sure if Israelis were able to confirm with ship’s captain that it was indeed US ship you could find some improbable storyline to shred even that evidence. > > :o I’m not out to “shred” any evidence; I am trying to point out that, for one thing, we don’t have all that much evidence, and for another, that people keep misreading the situation based on the assumption that the US and Israel have always been allies. At the time, if the Israelis did know it was a US ship, they may well have assumed that the US was intervening “deniably” on the Egyptian side, and that may have been a correct assumption. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/79 "2013-02-07T20:31:11Z")
> [@Bob\_X](#): > > I’m not out to “shred” any evidence; I am trying to point out that, for one thing, we don’t have all that much evidence, and for another, that people keep misreading the situation based on the assumption that the US and Israel have always been allies. At the time, if the Israelis did know it was a US ship, they may well have assumed that the US was intervening “deniably” on the Egyptian side, and that may have been a correct assumption. There’s more evidence about USS Liberty than bin Laden did 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121/80 "2013-02-07T21:15:50Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > This commentator would suggest that nothing demonstrates cruel willingness than shooting down civilian aircraft with 290 onboard and then lying about circumstances - > [Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655) Yes, and the captain of the Stark was court-martialled for ignoring the Iraqi aircraft because he thought the Iraqis were “on our side”, whil the captain of the Vincennes was not for reacting forcefully to a percieved threat. Lesson for navy officers - if it looks like it’s an attack, better safe than sorry. Especially after the last guy ignored a possible threat and got hit. After all, a radical organization would not deliberately crash airliners into a target would they? I find it odd the map in the Wiki article does not show the position of the ship(s). in fact, the general comment I recall about that incident was that the Iranians were shocked how few people in the UN and diplomatic community took their side in this incident. The fact that an aircraft ignored repeated requests to stop approaching in the most volatile area in the world was perceived as stupid. Was it a communication error, arrogance, or a possible sneak attack - the captain had only minutes to decide what to do. What he did not do, is wait like the Liberty or the Stark until it was too late. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-really-propose-operation-northwoods/649121.md?page=5)