# Did US troops overrun by enemy ever direct bombs/artillery on their own position? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 25, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-troops-overrun-by-enemy-ever-direct-bombs-artillery-on-their-own-position/346023 "2006-02-25T02:54:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-troops-overrun-by-enemy-ever-direct-bombs-artillery-on-their-own-position/346023/1 "2006-02-25T02:54:52Z")
I think Oliver Stone’s “Platoon”–and possibly “Apocalypse Now”–depicted a scene in which NVA troops completely overrun a Marine stronghold. As the defensive positions collapse, a desperate US commander picks up the radio and calls in a napalm strike right on their own position. The logic being: “If we’re going to die, let take these SOB’s with us.” Is there much historic precendent of calling in a bombardment directly of one’s own position? ---
**Author:** ![bradministrator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a698b9/32.png) [@bradministrator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bradministrator)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-troops-overrun-by-enemy-ever-direct-bombs-artillery-on-their-own-position/346023/2 "2006-02-25T03:02:06Z")
[John R Fox’s MoH citation](http://www.medalofhonor.com/JohnRFox.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-troops-overrun-by-enemy-ever-direct-bombs-artillery-on-their-own-position/346023/3 "2006-02-25T03:22:26Z")
> [@bradministrator](#): > > [John R Fox’s MoH citation](http://www.medalofhonor.com/JohnRFox.htm) Great cite. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-troops-overrun-by-enemy-ever-direct-bombs-artillery-on-their-own-position/346023/4 "2006-02-25T04:50:20Z")
[Brian Thacker’s](http://www.medalofhonor.com/BrianThacker.htm) > [@](#): > > With complete disregard for his personal safety, he remained inside the perimeter alone to provide covering fire with his M-16 rifle until all other friendly forces had escaped from the besieged fire base. Then, in an act of supreme courage, he called for friendly artillery fire on his own position to allow his comrades more time to withdraw safely from the area and, at the same time, inflict even greater casualties on the enemy forces. [Louis Rocco](http://www.mishalov.com/Rocco.html) > [@](#): > > The next day, two American helicopters were shot down trying to evacuate the crewmen, who had called in artillery and air strikes on their own position to turn back an assault by North Vietnamese troops. [And a WW2 cite](http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/korea/articles/forwardobserverartillery.aspx) > [@](#): > > The fact that so many FO’s have called fire onto their own positions brings to light a startling realization of what Winston Churchill said ‘Uncommon valor was a common virtue’. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-troops-overrun-by-enemy-ever-direct-bombs-artillery-on-their-own-position/346023/5 "2006-02-25T05:45:18Z")
The quote in the Audie Murphy movie is supposedly accurate. During the action for which he was awarded the Medal of Honor he was asked by the artillery controller on the other end of the radio,“How close is the enemy?” LT Murphy said, “Hold on a second and you can ask them yourself.” If this was actually said no one will probably ever know but he did call in artillery on his own location while he was firing on the advancing enemy from a burning tank destroyer. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-troops-overrun-by-enemy-ever-direct-bombs-artillery-on-their-own-position/346023/6 "2006-02-25T05:57:40Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > Is there much historic precendent of calling in a bombardment directly of one’s own position? Yes there is, but not often. There is a line in the vicinity of forward positions and it is unsafe to target anything short of that line. I believe that artillery units are reluctant to accede to a request to fire inside the safe line for artillery and might even be justified in demanding a written order to do so. However, historian John Toland in his book detailing the WWII Battle of the Bulge wrote of a couple of incidents in which requests to fire inside the line were complied with. In both cases units were being attacked by German tanks and they requested fire on or near their location. Their rationale was that they were in holes and the tanks were exposed and in order to keep from being completely swamped they had to risk the danger from friendly fire. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-troops-overrun-by-enemy-ever-direct-bombs-artillery-on-their-own-position/346023/7 "2006-02-25T08:41:36Z")
On the History Channel a few months back, they had several service men talking about their experiences in Afghanistan. They were trapped on a mountain and were pinned down by Taliban fighters, and they called down an airstrike on their own position because that was the only way they had any hope of surviving. The pilots who were in communication with the ground forces were reluctant to do it, but they did do it, and at least some of the guys on the ground survived. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-troops-overrun-by-enemy-ever-direct-bombs-artillery-on-their-own-position/346023/8 "2006-02-25T20:10:19Z")
I think it’s not common, but not unheard of in desperate situations. Artillerly doesn’t usually kill you by landing directly on your head; it kills you by blowing up somewhere in a 20 yard radius and spraying jagged metal at you. If you’re in a nice hole with your head down, that metal won’t reach you. So if your unit is in prepared foxholes or a basement, then calling artillery down on yourself is risky, but not a death sentence. And of course, it’s a lot worse for the bad guys above ground (especially as if they’re attacking, they’re probably standing up and trying to move). ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-troops-overrun-by-enemy-ever-direct-bombs-artillery-on-their-own-position/346023/9 "2006-02-25T21:17:15Z")
It happened in Forest Gump, didnit? ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-troops-overrun-by-enemy-ever-direct-bombs-artillery-on-their-own-position/346023/10 "2006-02-25T21:19:11Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > I think it’s not common, but not unheard of in desperate situations. Artillerly doesn’t usually kill you by landing directly on your head; it kills you by blowing up somewhere in a 20 yard radius and spraying jagged metal at you. If you’re in a nice hole with your head down, that metal won’t reach you. > So if your unit is in prepared foxholes or a basement, then calling artillery down on yourself is risky, but not a death sentence. And of course, it’s a lot worse for the bad guys above ground (especially as if they’re attacking, they’re probably standing up and trying to move). If you’re huddling in a hole and the equivalent of a 155 mm shell lands within 20 yards of you–perhaps more–that shell will pulverize you, no matter what. The craters those shells create are not to be believed. Somebody may provide a cite, if we’re lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-us-troops-overrun-by-enemy-ever-direct-bombs-artillery-on-their-own-position/346023/11 "2006-02-25T21:23:52Z")
This talks about blast radius, but obviously doesn’t factor in the soldier hiding in a fox hole. I may be wrong re: dug in troops. “Typical kill radius was 30 meters for a 105mm or 4.2inch round, 50 meters for a 155mm and 80 meters for an 8inch round.” [http://www.vietvet.org/arty.htm](http://www.vietvet.org/arty.htm)