# Did Vietnam Vets get spat on by protestors? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 2, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055 "2003-04-02T21:20:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/1 "2003-04-02T21:20:28Z")
We all know that during Vietnam, veterans returning home were spit on by protestors and called “baby killers.” Right? But in a [recent article](http://www.mountainx.com/news/2003/0319troops.php) in our local weekly paper, a journalist made the case that this rarely if ever happened – and that there is no documentation of its occurrence during the Vietnam War. > [@](#): > > But according to Vietnam vet Jerry Lembcke – a sociology professor at Holy Cross College in Worcester, Mass., and the author of The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam (New York University Press, 1998)– there’s no documentary evidence that it actually did. > > “If you go back and look at the historical record, like I did – newspaper accounts, police records, and also just things historians have written,” Lembcke told this reporter, “you don’t find any record or any evidence that these things happened – or even that they were being claimed as happening – in the late '60s and early '70s.” A number of other scholars cited by Lembcke have also combed contemporary records in vain. Not so much as a letter penned by a GI writing home at the time has turned up that describes being spat on, he says. Is this guy correct? It’s a little hard to believe, frankly: the image of a protestor spitting on a veteran is one of the enduring images from the '60s. Does anyone have the evidence that could refute this professor’s conclusions? Mods, I think this has a factual answer and therefore belongs in this forum; however, if it starts veering into Great Debates territory, my apologies in advance, alongside a humble request to move it into Great Debates rather than closing it. Fellow posters, please make this paragraph unnecessary by limiting responses to the factual. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/2 "2003-04-02T22:28:07Z")
You might find [this](http://www.providence.edu/polisci/affigne/students/vietnam/vietpaper.htm) article interesting (it mentions Lembcke as well). In addition, Lembcke has been known to [qualify his position](http://www.rlg.org/annmtg/lembcke99.html): > [@](#): > > I cannot, of course, prove to anyone’s satisfaction that spitting incidents like these did not happen. Indeed, it seems likely to me that it probably did happen to some veteran, some time, some place. But while I cannot prove the negative, I can prove the positive: I can show what did happen during those years and that that historical record makes it highly unlikely that the alleged acts of spitting occurred in the number and manner that is now widely believed… > > The spitting image is a myth, however, not because the alleged acts of spitting did not happen, but because of the way the image functions in the society. The spitting image, I contend, helps to tell a story that is not true, namely, that the United States lost the war in Vietnam because of betrayal on the home front. In other words, the spitting image helps construct an alibi for why the war was lost. The alibi runs that we were not beaten by a small, underdeveloped, nation of Asians but rather by liberals in congress who “tied one hand behind our backs” and by radicals in the streets whose actions demoralized our troops and gave aid and comfort to the enemy. It is an alibi that helps preserve key elements of American national and racial superiority: we were not defeated by Asian “others” but by our own kind. In effect, the alibi allows those who wish to believe that we were defeated by the only power on earth capable of beating the United States: the United States itself. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/3 "2003-04-02T22:34:58Z")
Notice Lembcke’s use of the word documented. What would be the occasion on which such an event was documented? When Lembcke first published his book, I encountered a small number of Vietnam era vets who recalled being spit upon, reacting to the article. In each case, they were alone and their assailant was alone. Going to the police to report “I was spit upon by an unknown person.” was probably not a viable option. If Lembcke wants to posit that there were no lines of protestors greeting returning ships and planes, with large numbers of spitters showing their contempt, I suspect that he is right. When he extrapolates that the event “never happened,” I suspect that he is ignoring the situations under which such events _would_ have occurred. The lack of references in letters from GIs is his strongest case, but I suspect that there _were_ events, perhaps rare, that set in motion the “memory” of it occurring. (I also would wonder how often a GI would have recorded such an event and how many letters we already have from Vietnam era GIs in collections that we could actually search.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/4 "2003-04-02T22:37:37Z")
I think that the “clarification” that **ArchiveGuy** turned up makes more sense than the original statement. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/5 "2003-04-02T22:50:00Z")
I always thought also that a lone attacker, doing that to a soldier, would have resulted in the attacker’s ass being thoroughly kicked; I think that was a reason why those affected soldiers did not report the incidents. I still think they were a few cases, but not on the level many on the right want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/6 "2003-04-02T22:57:39Z")
Here is some documentation. I was a veteran, in 1969, and was spit at by protesters during an anti war rally, in Blacksburg, Virginia. I was spit at by a pro government spectator, watching as I protested against the war. No one in the anti war movement ever spit at me. I was spit at again, in both the October, 1970, and November, 1970 Moratorium Marches, again on both occasions, by pro government spectators, objecting to my acts as I protested against the war. The anti war movement was never militantly anti soldier. Many of the earliest organizers of the actual marches were veterans, like me. We didn’t seek to belittle the common soldier for defending his country as he thought was his duty. We did seek to reveal the hypocrisy that allowed the civilian government to use the military to promote its own economic and political goals by pretending that military junketism in southeast Asia was in some way related to American security. The little tin pot dictator we supported was no less a despot that the one we opposed. OUR SUMBICH, as opposed to theirs. War as a tool of political influence is always a matter of selective historical recall. We seldom bring up our past experiences in protecting the freedoms of the nations we invade. We have good reason not to. Without even considering the morality, or ethical standards of such a practice, it would be entirely to embarrassing to have to consider them in purely objective terms, like say, “Did it work?” And just for those of you wondering just how long the Iraq war is going to last, consider this little tidbit: My father also served in Viet Nam. That’s another whole generation. So, consider your own children, when you think about it. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Payton\_s\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3da27b/32.png) [@Payton\_s\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Payton_s_Servant)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/7 "2003-04-03T01:07:00Z")
I recall Walter Cronkite reading a story on the CBS Evening News about a Vietnam Vet who had a bucket of blood thrown at him. This was in 1973. The hippies weren’t all flowers and love. ---
**Author:** ![Yeah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/dbc845/32.png) [@Yeah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeah)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/8 "2003-04-03T01:36:33Z")
The last time this question was asked on GQ, no one could come up with any first hand evidence that spitting on GIs ever happened. It would be terrific if Tom could locate the “Vietnam era vets who recalled being spit upon” so that he could debunk Lembcke. But in the meantime, I’ll go with the evidence and my personal experience as a GI in the U.S. 1968-70 put spitting on vets in the category of life on Mars and Nessie: could be, but I’ll reserve judgement until I see some evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/9 "2003-04-03T01:40:03Z")
I don’t recall ever hearing or reading any Vietnam veteran (before **Triskadecamus** just now) who said he had been spat on. I do recall Lt. Frederick Downs writing in his foreword to _The Killing Zone_, his memoir of his Vietnam service, about an encounter on a university campus. A student walked up to him, pointed at the hook that had replaced Downs’ hand (he had lost it to a Bouncing Betty land mine) and asked, “Get that in Vietnam?” When Downs responded in the affirmative, the student said, “Serves you right,” and walked away. Regardless of the truth about “spitting,” I am not yet prepared to discard the accepted version that Vietnam veterans came home to a reception far more hostile than any previous American veterans. Lembcke’s comment about the absence of a letter “penned by a GI writing home at the time” seems silly to me. The protestors were in America, not in Vietnam. Why would a soldier writing home describe an experience that didn’t happen to him until after he got home? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/10 "2003-04-03T03:07:41Z")
Thanks for the information, folks! I do think that the qualifications were in the original post: while saying “there’s no documentation of this” doesn’t equal “this didn’t happen,” it does suggest that it didn’t happen regularly. **Trisk** , your story is interesting, and it makes me wonder: is there contemporary (i.e., from the late sixties) documentation of people spitting on anti-war protestors? Not that I’m casting aspersions on your story, but it would be interesting if there’s documentation in one direction but not in the other direction; it would cast even more doubt, I’d think, on the peacenik-spitting stories. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/11 "2003-04-03T03:29:54Z")
Here are two previous threads where this is discussed: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=71601](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=71601) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=48019](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=48019) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/12 "2003-04-03T14:49:41Z")
Thanks for the links! Must remember in the future to search the forum before posting a general question. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/13 "2003-04-03T15:12:11Z")
Before he became persona non grata in Chicago, journalist Bob Greene wrote an entire book on this very subject. The OP might find it useful. "The Homecoming: When the Soldiers Returned from Vietnam by Bob Greene " It started with a newspaper column in which Greene wondered about the truth of the “hippies spitting on vets” myth. First of, Greene, observed, most of the anti-war protestors he knew were NOT angry at the soldiers themselves (indeed, “bring the boys home” was a common slogan among protestors). Second, what are the odds that a battle-hardened Green Beret would simply let a scrawny, wimpy, longhaired hippie spit on him? Greene got a lot of responses to that column- and those responses led to this book, which should be available at most good libraries. ---
**Author:** ![krisolov](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krisolov/32/3724_2.png) [@krisolov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krisolov)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/14 "2003-04-03T15:39:45Z")
Hell, I was spit on when I was walking across campus in my ROTC uniform in the early 80s. It was accompanied by the woman saying “Rape, Murder, Kill!” to me as she walked by. I was stunned. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/15 "2003-04-03T15:41:33Z")
DanielWithrow writes (in the OP): \> It’s a little hard to believe, frankly: the image of a protestor \> spitting on a veteran is one of the enduring images from \> the '60s. Lots of “enduring images” never happened. We have an image of a gunfight in the old West: Two men face each other separated by about 50 feet on a deserted street, calling out to each other to draw, until finally one does and they both fire. It’s doubtful if this ever happened. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vietnam-vets-get-spat-on-by-protestors/166055/16 "2003-04-12T22:18:58Z")
Actually, the ill treatment of veterans came more from the establishment (military and government) than from any hippies. The hippies mostly got us stoned and laid. Both of which were salve for some very bruised souls. 🙂 Peace, (and love) mangeorge