# Did Vikings or Norse explore North America beyond Newfoundland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 12, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076 "2013-02-12T12:48:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/21 "2013-02-12T15:40:29Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > Here’s a good source on astronomical alignments. [http://www.chronognostic.org/newport\_tower.html](http://www.chronognostic.org/newport_tower.html) A good example of you see what you want to see. And you didn’t answer my first question. > [@Alessan](#): > > Remember, these were guys who came from a barren wasteland known as “Greenland”. They were \*ironic \*vikings. > [@leahcim](#): > > Have you seen their facial hair? Total hipster. > [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > God damned hipsters! Remember that these people were into advertising. When they found that the name Iceland didn’t sell they named the next island they discovered, which was really covered with glaciers, Greenland instead. ---
**Author:** ![Huvudtvatt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Huvudtvatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huvudtvatt)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/22 "2013-02-12T16:02:10Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > The Newport Tower, if pre-Columbian, was probably built in the late 14th century, not by Vikings but by their descendents who had long known of these lands. Most often cited as likely is Prince Henry Sinclair. But to me, the important thing is not who built it, we’ll probably never know. But that it is pre-colonial. So, are you saying that the vikings were in America for hundreds of years without leaving any trace, and then decided to build a massive stone tower that doesn’t look viking at all? ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/23 "2013-02-12T16:03:24Z")
> [@Floater](#): > > Remember that these people were into advertising. When they found that the name Iceland didn’t sell they named the next island they discovered, which was really covered with glaciers, Greenland instead. And then they went to found their next colony on Baffin Island, or as they called it, “Boobsland”. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/24 "2013-02-12T16:08:05Z")
> [@Huvudtvatt](#): > > So, are you saying that the vikings were in America for hundreds of years without leaving any trace, and then decided to build a massive stone tower that doesn’t look viking at all? And then they hid for more hundreds of years before coming back to shoot Kennedy. No wonder people haven’t been able to solve it. Those Vikings are _sneaky_! ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/25 "2013-02-12T16:32:47Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > And then they hid for more hundreds of years before coming back to shoot Kennedy. No wonder people haven’t been able to solve it. Those Vikings are _sneaky_! Ironic and sneaky no doubt. Here is [the link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Harrelson)that ties it together: > [@](#): > > Charles **Harrelson** was born on July 23, 1938 in Huntsville, Texas, the son of Alma Lee (née Sparks) and Voyde Harrelson. He was married to Nancy Hillman Harrelson, Jo Ann Harrelson, Diane Lou\*\* Oswald\*\*… For more detailed information see [my post in the JFK thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15993291&postcount=13). ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/26 "2013-02-12T16:32:53Z")
Of course the Vikings explored N. America. They had good reason to do so-they needed bog iron ore and timber (for ships)-neither of which were available in Greenland. The question is: how long did they stay and how far did they go. Most probably, they did get as far south as cape Cod-a site at a place called Follin’s Pond was found by an amateur archaeologist in the 1930’s (a man by the name of Pohl). As far as I can determine, Pohl’s work was never followed up (by university trained archaeologists), and so the questions still arise. There are any number of theories-one (by Prof. Horsford of Harvard) that they reached the headwaters of the Charles River in Boston-this claim has not been proven. When did the N. American voyages cease? probably by 1350 or so-the worsening climate made n sea travel from Greenland dangerous. Also, the Black Death hit Greenland around 1360-and probably half the colony died. The end of the greenland colony is no mystery-once the p[opulation had shrunk below replacement levels, the survivors either returned to Iceland or Norway…there is also evidence that some were abducted by English or Flemish pirates. That is why no human skeletons were found in the ruins of the houses-everybody who could had simply left. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/27 "2013-02-12T16:45:26Z")
I think the KSJ could be legit, the arguments against it are weak- except that it is too FAR from the ocean. Not impossible but… Norse writings seem to indicate that L’anse aux Meadows was NOT their biggest settlement, which was further south. However, note that the sea level has risen and stuff may be underwater. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/28 "2013-02-12T16:51:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I think the KSJ could be legit, the arguments against it are weak- except that it is too FAR from the ocean. Not impossible but… Ok, now I’m lost, what’s the KSJ? Is that the same as the Kensington Rune Stone? ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/29 "2013-02-12T16:55:00Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Of course the Vikings explored N. America. They had good reason to do so-they needed bog iron ore and timber (for ships)-neither of which were available in Greenland. The question is: how long did they stay and how far did they go. Most probably, they did get as far south as cape Cod-a site at a place called Follin’s Pond was found by an amateur archaeologist in the 1930’s (a man by the name of Pohl). As far as I can determine, Pohl’s work was never followed up (by university trained archaeologists), and so the questions still arise. There are any number of theories-one (by Prof. Horsford of Harvard) that they reached the headwaters of the Charles River in Boston-this claim has not been proven. When did the N. American voyages cease? probably by 1350 or so-the worsening climate made n sea travel from Greenland dangerous. Also, the Black Death hit Greenland around 1360-and probably half the colony died. The end of the greenland colony is no mystery-once the p[opulation had shrunk below replacement levels, the survivors either returned to Iceland or Norway..there is also evidence that some were abducted by English or Flemish pirates. That is why no human skeletons were found in the ruins of the houses-everybody who could had simply left. All good points. Greenland proved to be a bridge too far. Had they been able to get a foothold further south, they might have hung on. ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/30 "2013-02-12T16:59:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I think the KSJ could be legit, the arguments against it are weak- except that it is too FAR from the ocean. Not impossible but… > > Norse writings seem to indicate that L’anse aux Meadows was NOT their biggest settlement, which was further south. > > However, note that the sea level has risen and stuff may be underwater. Thje argument against it is that the discovery is not reliably documented and there are no other finds that substantiate it. It’s an anomaly at best. It can’t be proven true or false, and in the science game, that makes it false. I see no motive for a party going that far into the interior, via either the St Lawrence or Hudson Bay, and then venturing further inland to leave a carved stone whose inscription makes little sense. Clearly, Occam’s razor is on the side of hoax for the KRS. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/31 "2013-02-12T17:02:53Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Of course the Vikings explored N. America. They had good reason to do so-they needed bog iron ore and timber (for ships)-neither of which were available in Greenland. The question is: how long did they stay and how far did they go. Most probably, they did get as far south as cape Cod-a site at a place called Follin’s Pond was found by an amateur archaeologist in the 1930’s (a man by the name of Pohl). As far as I can determine, Pohl’s work was never followed up (by university trained archaeologists), and so the questions still arise. There are any number of theories-one (by Prof. Horsford of Harvard) that they reached the headwaters of the Charles River in Boston-this claim has not been proven. When did the N. American voyages cease? probably by 1350 or so-the worsening climate made n sea travel from Greenland dangerous. Also, the Black Death hit Greenland around 1360-and probably half the colony died. The end of the greenland colony is no mystery-once the p[opulation had shrunk below replacement levels, the survivors either returned to Iceland or Norway..there is also evidence that some were abducted by English or Flemish pirates. That is why no human skeletons were found in the ruins of the houses-everybody who could had simply left. Prof. Horsford, by the way, was the guy responsible for the statue of Leif Ericson being on Commonwealth Ave in Boston – precisely because he was convinced that the Vikings were there. Was this Pohl the same Frederick Pohl who wrote about other pre-Columbian visitors (including Henry Sinclair, the ruins at Mystery Hill, and the Newport Tower)? He strikes me as sincere and dedicated, but his conclusions are, by and large, not believed by the professionals. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/32 "2013-02-12T17:16:52Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Of course the Vikings explored N. America. They had good reason to do so-they needed bog iron ore and timber (for ships)-neither of which were available in Greenland. The question is: how long did they stay and how far did they go. Most probably, they did get as far south as cape Cod-a site at a place called Follin’s Pond was found by an amateur archaeologist in the 1930’s (a man by the name of Pohl). As far as I can determine, Pohl’s work was never followed up (by university trained archaeologists), and so the questions still arise. It’s [Follins Pond](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Follins_Pond). Frederick J. Pohl\*, the one mentioned by Cal, worked in the 1950s. > [@](#): > > Pohl published a book in 1952 entitled _The Lost discovery: Uncovering the track of the Vikings in America_ which detailed this claim. It is not taken seriously by professional historians, as the evidence presented is rather scant and no archaeological finds of any significance have been made in the area since. An amateur making a claim does not imply that questions remain. It implies that amateurs are always amateurs. > [@](#): > > There are any number of theories-one (by Prof. Horsford of Harvard) that they reached the headwaters of the Charles River in Boston-this claim has not been proven. The 19th century Eben Norton Horsford is a prime example of an amateur crank, with no training or expertise in archaeology. Again from [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Norton_Horsford#Vikings): > [@](#): > > The professor wrote a seemingly endless series of books, articles, and pamphlets about the Vikings’ visits to Massachusetts. After his death, his daughter Cornelia took up the cause. Their work received little support from mainstream historians and archeologists at the time, and even less today. All of these amateurs are at the same level as the amateurs who insist that Shakespeare didn’t write Shakespeare. Professionals show that they have no true evidence at all, and what they claim to be evidence isn’t. That doesn’t stop them. Which is why they are amateurs and always will be. \*Not the famous SF author, whose middle name is George, although you will find that mistake if you search his name. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/33 "2013-02-12T17:30:54Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Ok, now I’m lost, what’s the KSJ? Is that the same as the Kensington Rune Stone? Opps, yes, the KRS. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/34 "2013-02-12T17:33:49Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > Thje argument against it is that the discovery is not reliably documented and there are no other finds that substantiate it. It’s an anomaly at best. It can’t be proven true or false, and in the science game, that makes it false. I see no motive for a party going that far into the interior, via either the St Lawrence or Hudson Bay, and then venturing further inland to leave a carved stone whose inscription makes little sense. Clearly, Occam’s razor is on the side of hoax for the KRS. Yes, perhaps. But unlike many other hoaxes, no one tried to get rich off it, and neither the finder nor anyone else ever confessed. If other discoveries appear then I’d say legit, but until then, it is too far, I agree. So, let us call it “doubtful”, OK? ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/35 "2013-02-12T17:42:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, perhaps. But unlike many other hoaxes, no one tried to get rich off it, and neither the finder nor anyone else ever confessed. If other discoveries appear then I’d say legit, but until then, it is too far, I agree. > > So, let us call it “doubtful”, OK? I have given a lot of thought to those factors, and while I suspect it is a hoax, I also believe there must be a fascinating story behind what was a very sophisticated hoax. Too bad we will never know what that story “really” is, but I have written a longish short story that, well, tells a story. I’ll be offering it free soon, it’s called “Far To The West Of Vinland.” ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/36 "2013-02-12T17:50:52Z")
It’s a mite suspicious that this Kensington Rune Stone just happened to surface in a community of Scandinavians, who wouldn’t mind seeing proof that their ancestors made it this far. And ones who _just_ happened to have a book with a runic alphabet in it. There are cother motivations besides filthy lucre. I’d be less suspicious of the KSR if it surfaced among a community of, say, Italians. Or Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/37 "2013-02-12T17:52:03Z")
An interesting, current book on the subject is _Vikings in America_ by **Graeme Davis**. I’m not particularly convinced by much of his speculation, but it’s a good overview of the subject. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/38 "2013-02-12T18:01:05Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It’s a mite suspicious that this Kensington Rune Stone just happened to surface in a community of Scandinavians, who wouldn’t mind seeing proof that their ancestors made it this far. And ones who _just_ happened to have a book with a runic alphabet in it. > > There are cother motivations besides filthy lucre. I’d be less suspicious of the KSR if it surfaced among a community of, say, Italians. Or Chinese. Sure, but part of it was that they recognized the runes as writings, and very old. Italians and Chinese might have just shrugged and cut it up for a foundation. Maybe there were others, found in circumstances as you suggest, now destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/39 "2013-02-12T18:07:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, but part of it was that they recognized the runes as writings, and very old. Italians and Chinese might have just shrugged and cut it up for a foundation. Maybe there were others, found in circumstances as you suggest, now destroyed. Cute, but the propability of outright forgery seems higher. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/40 "2013-02-12T18:08:21Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > All good points. Greenland proved to be a bridge too far. Had they been able to get a foothold further south, they might have hung on. Not to mention that North America was hardly “vacant” at the time. The vikings found themselves in conflict with the Beothuks in Newfoundland, and existing populations got denser farther south. Even if they found great resources elsewhere on the continent doesn’t mean that they could harvest them unmolested. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076.md?page=3)