# Did Vikings or Norse explore North America beyond Newfoundland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 12, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076 "2013-02-12T12:48:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/41 "2013-02-12T18:09:32Z")
The KRS, supposedly, was first thought to be an Indian almanack. I can share the suspicion about it being a Scandinavian area, but let’s not get too cynical. The climate and terrain in MN is much like Sweden and Norway. If it seemed like home to 19th century settlers, it might have seemed like home to 14th century explorers. I guarantee you no Minnesota farmer carved the KRS. The carving would have been hard enough, but knowing what to carve didn’t happen. The linguistic light that has been shed on the KRS makes clear that there are runes and usage on the KRS that were correct for 1362, but only a relative few scholars knew that in 1898, and none of them were in America. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/42 "2013-02-12T18:19:55Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > The KRS, supposedly, was first thought to be an Indian almanack. I can share the suspicion about it being a Scandinavian area, but let’s not get too cynical. The climate and terrain in MN is much like Sweden and Norway. If it seemed like home to 19th century settlers, it might have seemed like home to 14th century explorers. > > I guarantee you no Minnesota farmer carved the KRS. The carving would have been hard enough, but knowing what to carve didn’t happen. The linguistic light that has been shed on the KRS makes clear that there are runes and usage on the KRS that were correct for 1362, but only a relative few scholars knew that in 1898, and none of them were in America. That really does depend on who your authority is. That things I’ve read about the stone lambaste it for using very out-of-date characters, and incorrectly. The runes needed were available in books they had in town. It also boggles the mind that this one artifact showed up an immense distance from the seashore, from where Vikings were likely to land (and where they wrere later shown to have landed), with no similar artifacts, settlements, or other indications of any sort along the way. The location of the stone is as unlikely as its existence at all. The Westford Rock is infinitely more probable as a genuine artifact, being close at it is to the coast, and its probability of being for real is vanishingly small. ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/43 "2013-02-12T18:57:13Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > That really does depend on who your authority is. That things I’ve read about the stone lambaste it for using very out-of-date characters, and incorrectly. The runes needed were available in books they had in town. > It also boggles the mind that this one artifact showed up an immense distance from the seashore, from where Vikings were likely to land (and where they wrere later shown to have landed), with no similar artifacts, settlements, or other indications of any sort along the way. The location of the stone is as unlikely as its existence at all. The Westford Rock is infinitely more probable as a genuine artifact, being close at it is to the coast, and its probability of being for real is vanishingly small. It depends on which authority is correct. It’s mythology that there was a book in MN with all the runes in it from the KRS. The only document with them was the recently (in 1898) discovered Larrson Run Rows, and that was in Sweden. If it is a forgery, and I think it is, it was done in Sweden with the help of runic scholars and sent to the US to be copied on the stone. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/44 "2013-02-12T18:59:35Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > It depends on which authority is correct. It’s mythology that there was a book in MN with all the runes in it from the KRS. The only document with them was the recently (in 1898) discovered Larrson Run Rows, and that was in Sweden. If it is a forgery, and I think it is, it was done in Sweden with the help of runic scholars and sent to the US to be copied on the stone. Not as I recall – the article I read reproduced pages from the book. But I don’t have any of my references here. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/45 "2013-02-12T19:06:30Z")
For vquick ‘n’ easy reference, the Wikipedia page on the KSR: > **[Kensington Runestone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Runestone)** > > 8 : göter : ok : 22 : norrmen : po : > ...o : opþagelsefärd : fro : > vinland : of : vest : vi : > hade : läger : ved : 2 : skLär : en : > dags : rise : norr : fro : þeno : sten : > vi : var : ok : fiske : en : dagh : äptir : > vi : kom : hem : fan : 10 : man : röde : > af : blod : og : ded : AVM : > frälse : äf : illü. > här : (10) : mans : ve : havet : at : se : > äptir : vore : skip : 14 : dagh : rise : > > > The Kensington Runestone is a slab of greywacke stone covered in runes that was discovered in central Minn... ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/46 "2013-02-12T19:23:10Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Not as I recall – the article I read reproduced pages from the book. But I don’t have any of my references here. I’m pretty studied on this but always willing to be proven wrong. I’d have to see it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/47 "2013-02-12T19:34:42Z")
This is all getting very cloudy. There’s no science that proves that the Kensington Rune Stone is a hoax. The sum total of the evidence indicates that it’s a late 19th century artifact, and not one created earlier. The problem is that there’s no way to clearly establish it’s origin as yet. Most people taking an unbiased look at the evidence conclude that it is not of Viking origin. I watched an interesting program that took a look at the origin of the original Archaeopterex fossil. Only one was found, and for many years no other. Without drawing a conclusion, it was demonstrated how the fossilized imprint could easily have been faked. That neither proved nor disproved anything. It’s only the later discovery of additional imprints where known witnesses observed the breaking of the rock that gave the strong proof that the imprints are real. Science is full of questions that require increasing evidence over time to confirm or deny. In the case of something like a rune stone, it may be impossible ever to resolve. But in this case, the evidence is that it could easily have been created in the 19th century, there was a motivation to do so, the grammar of the message is inconsitent with a Viking origin, and there were sources of the runes that could have been used to create it. All of the evidence in favor of a Viking origin is based on a presumption of a Viking origin to start with, which is questionable methodology. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/48 "2013-02-12T21:30:27Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Of course the Vikings explored N. America… Only if by “of course” you mean: Contrary to the consensus among archeologists today. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/49 "2013-02-12T22:03:16Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > Not to mention that North America was hardly “vacant” at the time. The vikings found themselves in conflict with the Beothuks in Newfoundland, and existing populations got denser farther south. Even if they found great resources elsewhere on the continent doesn’t mean that they could harvest them unmolested. This is a point I have wondered about and would like to see explored a little more. The story of how the North American natives were decimated by euro-diseases is pretty well documented. If the Vikings were able to establish themselves as far south as Rhode Island, with enough people, and time, to construct that tower, you would think they would have attracted the attention of the locals. Any contact between the two would have resulted in the epidemics coming earlier than the 1500s, right? And, even with the Newfoundland evidence, did the locals get sick from the Vikings’ presence there? Did the Vikings not carry smallpox and measles for some reason, while the Spanish did? I guess my question is: it is widely accepted that the Vikings were in N America prior to the Spanish, so why did the local Indian populations not start getting smallpox until the Spanish arrived in 1519? ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/50 "2013-02-12T22:15:15Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This is all getting very cloudy. There’s no science that proves that the Kensington Rune Stone is a hoax. The sum total of the evidence indicates that it’s a late 19th century artifact, and not one created earlier. The problem is that there’s no way to clearly establish it’s origin as yet. Most people taking **an unbiased look at the evidence conclude that it is not of Viking origin.** > > I watched an interesting program that took a look at the origin of the original Archaeopterex fossil. Only one was found, and for many years no other. Without drawing a conclusion, it was demonstrated how the fossilized imprint could easily have been faked. That neither proved nor disproved anything. It’s only the later discovery of additional imprints where known witnesses observed the breaking of the rock that gave the strong proof that the imprints are real. > > Science is full of questions that require increasing evidence over time to confirm or deny. In the case of something like a rune stone, it may be impossible ever to resolve. But in this case, the evidence is that it could easily have been created in the 19th century, there was a motivation to do so, the grammar of the message is inconsitent with a Viking origin, and there were sources of the runes that could have been used to create it. All of the evidence in favor of a Viking origin is based on a presumption of a Viking origin to start with, which is questionable methodology. How could it be of viking origin when it is dated (in two places) 1362? The vikings had been gone a long time by the 14th century. Now, there “are” those who think there were vikings in MN during the viking period. And that they sailed their ships deep into rivers because the water level was so much higher back then (it wasn’t really). But those people understand they are talking about hundreds of years BEFORE the KRS. Which century are “you” talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/51 "2013-02-12T22:17:55Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > And, even with the Newfoundland evidence, did the locals get sick from the Vikings’ presence there? We don’t know. The local population was sufficiently sparse and transient that even a significant percentage drop wouldn’t leave much evidence in the archaeological record. If there were epidemics, they do not appear to have spread to the agricultural civilizations further south, where they _would_ leave more of a record (in the form of suddenly abandoned villages). That in itself argues against an extended or wide-ranging Norse presence. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/52 "2013-02-12T22:49:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Only if by “of course” you mean: Contrary to the consensus among archeologists today. No, \*contrary to the consensus among archeologists before \*L’anse aux Meadows. That _is_ part of North America. And no one thinks the Norse touched there and only there. How far did they get? No one knows and there’s lots of speculation but little evidence. There’s a new dig up north, a coin found hither, and a few rather dubious stones, etc. **TriPolar** & **Shiloh**. What Shiloh is saying that the KRS may be _Norse_, but not _Viking_. And, most of the arguments vs the KRS were before L’anse aux Meadows when pretty much _every_ archeologist dismissed _any_ Pre-Columbian voyages as woo- mostly as they _were_ mostly “woo”. Until L’anse aux Meadows . The main points arguing vs the KRS is it’s location and there’s no other evidence with it. OTOH, there is no evidence at all of a attempted hoax. My opinion is “doubtful unless some other evidence is found”. The arguments based upon rune styles are specious and contradictatory . The Norse seem to have been somewhat isolated from many of the plagues hitting western Europe, so it’s possible a small group of them wouldn’t have any to spread. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/53 "2013-02-12T23:07:14Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > How could it be of viking origin when it is dated (in two places) 1362? The vikings had been gone a long time by the 14th century. Now, there “are” those who think there were vikings in MN during the viking period. And that they sailed their ships deep into rivers because the water level was so much higher back then (it wasn’t really). But those people understand they are talking about hundreds of years BEFORE the KRS. Which century are “you” talking about? > [@DrDeth](#): > > **TriPolar** & **Shiloh**. What Shiloh is saying that the KRS may be _Norse_, but not _Viking_. > > And, most of the arguments vs the KRS were before L’anse aux Meadows when pretty much _every_ archeologist dismissed _any_ Pre-Columbian voyages as woo- mostly as they _were_ mostly “woo”. Until L’anse aux Meadows . My apologies. I meant pre-Columbian origin. It may certainly be of Norse origin, in the late 19th cerntury. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/54 "2013-02-13T04:21:36Z")
On a related topic what do you make of this story? [Old Spanish document suggests Irish were in America before Columbus](http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Old-Spanish-document-suggests-Irish-were-in-America-before-Columbus-190817901.html) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/55 "2013-02-13T17:22:45Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > On a related topic what do you make of this story? > > [Old Spanish document suggests Irish were in America before Columbus](http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Old-Spanish-document-suggests-Irish-were-in-America-before-Columbus-190817901.html) The Norse sagas do tell of Irish monks living in Iceland (at the time the vikings arrived). There are also the legendary stories about St. Brendan (“the Bold”)-although traveling the North Atlantic in a skin boat (curragh) is kinda difficult. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/56 "2013-02-14T14:50:23Z")
I did find two of Pohl’s old books-regarding Follins Pond-he did find two boulders with anchor bolt holes bored into them. Of course, he had no way of determining the age of these boreholes-are there any modern dating techniques that can tell when a pice of rock had been sculpted? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/57 "2013-02-14T15:12:37Z")
There’s the [Goddard Coin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maine_penny), which _possibly_ evidences Norse presence at the south end of Maine. There was an entertaining (though kind of breathless and non-factual) documentary about potential pre-Columbian voyages to the New World on H2 the other day. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/58 "2013-02-14T15:29:26Z")
The [Narragansett Rune Stone](http://www.slideshare.net/rmdejonge/narragan-1)rarely gets any mention, and [now it’s missing!](http://www.independentri.com/front/article_d22659e4-f2a7-11e1-b5f1-001a4bcf887a.html) Those vikings are so sneaky and ironic. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/59 "2013-02-14T16:24:12Z")
Parks Canada mentions [butternuts](http://www.pc.gc.ca/eng/lhn-nhs/nl/meadows/natcul/vinland.aspx) being found at the L’Anse aux Meadows site despite them not growing north of New Brunswick, indicating that the vikings spread out that far, at least seasonally. I think it’s unlikely that the confirmed sites are the absolute limit of Norse exploration, but L’Anse is about the last place where we definitely can say, “yes they were here at this spot specifically”. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076/60 "2013-02-14T16:31:06Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > On a related topic what do you make of this story? > > [Old Spanish document suggests Irish were in America before Columbus](http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Old-Spanish-document-suggests-Irish-were-in-America-before-Columbus-190817901.html) This article is rather light on evidence. St. Brendan, of course, is legendary, obvious to anyone who reads it. _De Orbe Novo_ is available online, but what little information there is seems pretty legendary, too. Vol. 2., p. 259 “Their king is called the Datha,” and the king’s sons act as horses. The country / tribal names he gives are Duhare, Xapida, Hatha, Xamunambe, and Tihe. All of this is reported as second-hand knowledge. It’s quite difficult, no matter what spelling system you assume, to render all these names sensibly as Irish, though “Duhare” alone certainly could be. Edit: this is from the English translation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-vikings-or-norse-explore-north-america-beyond-newfoundland/650076.md?page=4)