# Did waterboarding help kill Bin Laden? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487 "2011-05-02T16:54:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/1 "2011-05-02T16:54:38Z")
It is now being [reported](http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-osama-bin-laden-cia-20110502,0,6466214.story) that crucial information used to find and kill Bin Laden was obtained by Khalid Shaikh Mohamed, who was waterboarded during interrogation at Guantanamo Bay. > [@](#): > > Crucial information about the trusted courier who owned the compound came years ago from CIA interrogations of 9-11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohamed, the official said. This is significant, because the Al Qaeda mastermind was subject to waterboarding and other brutal interrogation methods. > > “We were able to get pieces of information from detainees,” the official said. “That took years and these guys don’t give it up all willingly.” Although the CIA official does not say specifically that this specific intel came from the waterboarding sessions, he does imply that enhanced interrogation methods were used to obtain it. If this is true\*, and you are/were against waterboarding and/or “enhanced interrogation methods”, does this change your outlook? Do you still claim that it doesn’t result in any truthful intel? - This is the only article I could find with an actual quote from a US official regarding this, but there are several that hint at this direction. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/2 "2011-05-02T17:17:35Z")
So you’re asking does the end justify the means? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/3 "2011-05-02T17:20:02Z")
If it were true - it wouldn’t change my point of view that torture is evil and more damaging to those who perform it than anything Bin Laden ever planned. I don’t believe I’ve ever claimed that it couldn’t possibly result in usable info but my objection to it is on moral grounds so that’s really beside the point, imo. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/4 "2011-05-02T17:24:10Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > If this is true\*, and you are/were against waterboarding and/or “enhanced interrogation methods”, does this change your outlook? Do you still claim that it doesn’t result in any truthful intel? Was this ever the argument? I don’t think it was. There were several arguments against waterboarding, but I don’t recall any that said all the intel garnered from the technique was false. The two salient arguments I can recall were: 1. You _could_ get actionable intelligence, but it would also be mixed in with a bunch of junk. 2. There are more efficient interrogation techniques. Retired intelligence and military interrogation officers have come out and repeated this and there are decades old US interrogation manuals that also back this up. I can get apples off my tree by blasting them with a shotgun, but it’s probably a better idea to find a ladder. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/5 "2011-05-02T17:27:21Z")
Especially since the whole “ticking bomb” scenario (to think that that bullshit was the brainchild of the French army during the Algerian war, and it is still running around today is incredible to me. And not in a good way. End of rant) that is used all the time to justify torture would be out of the equation on this. Did Ben Laden score any success on any other terrorist operation since september11? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/6 "2011-05-02T17:27:52Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > If this is true\*, and you are/were against waterboarding and/or “enhanced interrogation methods”, does this change your outlook? Do you still claim that it doesn’t result in any truthful intel? I do not think anyone ever claimed torture _never_ results in truthful information being given. It is just considered the worst possible way to obtain reliable intelligence in the military/law enforcement community. Napoleon even knew this and he’d be a guy who’d have your nuts in a vice in seconds if he thought it’d have been useful. > [@](#): > > “The barbarous custom of having men beaten who are suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this way of interrogating men, by putting them to torture, produces nothing worthwhile.” - Napoleon Bonaparte > > SOURCE: [Napoleon to Berthier 11 Nov 1798, Corres., V, no. 3606 p. 128 quoted in - Napoleon on the Art of War](http://www.military-quotes.com/Napoleon.htm) Nazis knew it too. > [@](#): > > Scharff was opposed to physically abusing prisoners with the intent to obtain information. Taught on the job, Scharff instead relied upon the Luftwaffe’s approved list of techniques which mostly involved making the interrogator seem as if he is his prisoner’s greatest advocate while in captivity. > > SOURCE: [Hanns Scharff, Germany’s “Master Interrogator”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff#Technique) The problem with torture is the prisoner will say anything to make the torture stop. Whatever they think you want to hear they’ll say. The problem for the interrogators is deciding what parts are actually true and often they have no clue. IIRC there was a case in South America where Pinochet’s goons were torturing a woman for information. As it happened she spilled the beans almost immediately but they did not believe her and continued to torture her. Eventually (a week or two later) they realized the original info was the truth but by that time the info was useless and helped them not at all. So no, this cannot be claimed as a victory for waterboarding even if we did gain that info via waterboarding. ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/7 "2011-05-02T17:30:36Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > So you’re asking does the end justify the means? 🙂 Well, I guess, yes, but with regards to this particular case, which looks more and more like an actual “torture led to Bin Laden” rather than a hypothetical situation with unproven results. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/8 "2011-05-02T17:32:08Z")
Two bits says we got the info in the time-honored way. Somebody ratted him out. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/9 "2011-05-02T17:34:25Z")
KSM was caught 8 years ago. Water boarding is bloody inefficient then. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/10 "2011-05-02T17:48:49Z")
It doesn’t much matter if it did; torture is unacceptable for any reason. Nor do I see any reason to believe that a bunch of people who have a history of lying are telling the truth this time. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/11 "2011-05-02T17:51:07Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > If this is true\*, and you are/were against waterboarding and/or “enhanced interrogation methods”, does this change your outlook? Not a bit. > [@](#): > > Do you still claim that it doesn’t result in any truthful intel? That wouldn’t be a reasonable claim. The argument against torture (aside from the fact that it’s torture) is that you can get the in other ways that don’t have the same problems as torture. When you torture someone, they will tell you whatever they think you want to hear - which doesn’t mean that it’s all false, but that not all of it is reliable. ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/12 "2011-05-02T17:51:19Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > KSM was caught 8 years ago. Water boarding is bloody inefficient then. You obviously haven’t read any timeline regarding the intel related to finding and killing Bin Laden. It took time to: - find out the couriers existed - identify the couriers - locate the couriers - conduct surveillance on the couriers - plan the operation - etc. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/13 "2011-05-02T17:51:22Z")
If the question is, was it worth it? I’d say the answer is a big no. I think we’ve made a lot of bad choices in responding to terrorism and the attacks of 9/11 and Gitmo is just one of them. Does a few bits of useful information , even leading to OBL’s death outweigh all the consequences of violating human rights? Hardly. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/14 "2011-05-02T17:54:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It doesn’t much matter if it did; torture is unacceptable for any reason. Nor do I see any reason to believe that a bunch of people who have a history of lying are telling the truth this time. And while it is true that Khalid Shaikh Mohamed was tortured, there is no reason to believe that he gave up good information during that process, as opposed to giving good information when the torture was suspended and more effective techniques were emplolyed. The news article is little more than an exercise in _post hoc, ergo propter hoc_ speculation. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/15 "2011-05-02T17:56:46Z")
Mohamed was waterboarded in 2003 and the info he gave allowed us to kill Osama in 2011? OK ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/16 "2011-05-02T17:58:20Z")
No, torture was wrong before and it’s still wrong now. And while I’ve argued in the past with many people on this board that torture can be effective, I have my doubts it was a factor in this case. I doubt Khalid Shaikh Mohamed, who’s been in custody since 2003, had any useful information about where Osama bin Laden was in 2011. This sounds more like an attempt to justify waterboarding. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/17 "2011-05-02T17:59:58Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > You obviously haven’t read any timeline regarding the intel related to finding and killing Bin Laden. It took time to: > > - find out the couriers existed > - identify the couriers > - locate the couriers > - conduct surveillance on the couriers > - plan the operation > - etc. _8 years?_ Suuuuure it did. I’m supposed to believe that _8 year old_ information _supposedly_ gathered from a hopelessly contaminated source was important in locating someone now? Hardly. I wouldn’t find that plausible even if torture was effective. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/18 "2011-05-02T18:01:17Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > You obviously haven’t read any timeline regarding the intel related to finding and killing Bin Laden. It took time to: > > - find out the couriers existed > - identify the couriers > - locate the couriers > - conduct surveillance on the couriers > - plan the operation > - etc. Eight years to set up a mission? The entire second world war took less time than that. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/19 "2011-05-02T18:10:56Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > You obviously haven’t read any timeline regarding the intel related to finding and killing Bin Laden. It took time to: > > - find out the couriers existed > - identify the couriers > - locate the couriers > - conduct surveillance on the couriers > - plan the operation > - etc. So…we tortured KSM, he told us where the son of Ladin was, and it took us eight years to get around to finally doing something about it? It ain’t exactly a ticking time bomb scenario, is it? This is a fucking bullshit claim. People who love torture trying to claim that torture lead to Bin Ladin’s killing are lying fucks. And my proof is the 8 years between the torture and the operation. It’s proof that the torture was counterproductive. And in fact, they didn’t much use torture to try to develop intelligence. They just tortured prisoners for fun. Yeah, for fun. You think they waterboarded the guy 187 times because on the 186th time he hadn’t said anything, but on the 187th time be sang like a canary? Read the docs. They tortured him in an effort to elicit, “learned helplessness”. That is, to teach him that the guards could torture him whenever they liked. In other words, we tortured KSM. And 8 years later we had the Fukushima Nuclear disaster. You connect the dots. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/20 "2011-05-02T18:11:20Z")
Outside of his own statements, drawn under torture, is there any reason to believe that KSM was really some sort of major powerhouse in AlQ? That he _ever_ knew anything? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=2)