# Did waterboarding help kill Bin Laden? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487 "2011-05-02T16:54:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/201 "2011-05-13T04:58:26Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > This military academy in Singapore (not known for liberal tendencies) reports that: > > [5 Myths About Torture and Truth | Military Studies at RSIS](http://rsismilitarystudies.wordpress.com/2009/12/11/5-myths-about-torture-and-truth/) > I’m sorry, but in my experience a sweeping accusation of calling a supported academic point of being an anti-intellectual one is a really silly one. Had this report from Singapore said that American law enforcement agencies been more successful at getting gangmembers flip on their comrades than the Gestapo was at getting members of the various resistance groups to flip you’d have a point but you haven’t so you don’t. Anyway, I’ll take your refusal to address the point law enforcement agencies using “normal interrogation techniques” have been less successful than the Gestapo as concession that those who say that torture works are correct. Don’t be embarrassed about doing so, conceding that the FBI, the LAPD and the British intelligence services arrayed against the IRA have been less successful using normal interrogation techniques than the Stasi, the KGB, and the Gestapo doesn’t mean we should adopt torture. Similarly, we shouldn’t try and redefine it to make it more acceptable by saying using threats of death or maiming to get information doesn’t constitute torture. Now if you wish to persist in arguing that LAPD detectives and FBI agents have had more success as interrogators than members of the Stasi and the KGB, well go ahead, but I’ll be honest. I don’t think any reasonable person will be able to take such a suggestion seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/202 "2011-05-13T05:09:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If it actually “didn’t work” then they wouldn’t have used it. See also: prayer, faith healing, rain dances. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/203 "2011-05-13T05:11:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Now if you wish to persist in arguing that LAPD detectives and FBI agents have had more success as interrogators than members of the Stasi and the KGB, well go ahead, but I’ll be honest. I don’t think any reasonable person will be able to take such a suggestion seriously. No, I’m not making that point, you need a cite for your assertion that the Stasi or KGB had more success. But in reality you are just tap dancing in an attempt to distract others into not noticing that one huge component of your position is a fantasy. The Gestapo failed with torture when compared to the ways they usually relied on getting information. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/204 "2011-05-13T05:26:53Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Had this report from Singapore said that American law enforcement agencies been more successful at getting gangmembers flip on their comrades than the Gestapo was at getting members of the various resistance groups to flip you’d have a point but you haven’t so you don’t. > > Anyway, I’ll take your refusal to address the point law enforcement agencies using “normal interrogation techniques” have been less successful than the Gestapo as concession that those who say that torture works are correct. > > Don’t be embarrassed about doing so, conceding that the FBI, the LAPD and the British intelligence services arrayed against the IRA have been less successful using normal interrogation techniques than the Stasi, the KGB, and the Gestapo doesn’t mean we should adopt torture. > > Similarly, we shouldn’t try and redefine it to make it more acceptable by saying using threats of death or maiming to get information doesn’t constitute torture. > > Now if you wish to persist in arguing that LAPD detectives and FBI agents have had more success as interrogators than members of the Stasi and the KGB, well go ahead, but I’ll be honest. I don’t think any reasonable person will be able to take such a suggestion seriously. Gangs and Organized Crime have been harmed by infiltrating the group. They get inside and become part of the gang and get all the information. They did not waterboard any mafia chiefs, yet they got all they needed. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/205 "2011-05-13T05:35:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Had this report from Singapore said that American law enforcement agencies been more successful at getting gangmembers flip on their comrades than the Gestapo was at getting members of the various resistance groups to flip you’d have a point but you haven’t so you don’t. > > Anyway, I’ll take your refusal to address the point law enforcement agencies using “normal interrogation techniques” have been less successful than the Gestapo as concession that those who say that torture works are correct. > > Don’t be embarrassed about doing so, conceding that the FBI, the LAPD and the British intelligence services arrayed against the IRA have been less successful using normal interrogation techniques than the Stasi, the KGB, and the Gestapo doesn’t mean we should adopt torture. > > Similarly, we shouldn’t try and redefine it to make it more acceptable by saying using threats of death or maiming to get information doesn’t constitute torture. > > Now if you wish to persist in arguing that LAPD detectives and FBI agents have had more success as interrogators than members of the Stasi and the KGB, well go ahead, but I’ll be honest. I don’t think any reasonable person will be able to take such a suggestion seriously. Have you found any cites at all for the claims you’ve made in this thread? So far, all the cites(and not just a bunch of newspaper articles, as **Rand Rover** keeps repeating) seem to support the ideas that 1. Water boarding is torture, and 2. Torture is not an effective way to gather accurate information. Where are _your_ cites? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/206 "2011-05-13T05:46:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. Torture is not an effective way to gather accurate information. > > Where are _your_ cites? You seriously think that the LAPD has been more successful at getting gangmembers to flip on one another than the Gestapo was at getting members of the French resistance to give up members or the KGB to get captured dissidents to cough up the names of other dissidents? Damn, next you’re going to ask me to prove that water is wet. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/207 "2011-05-13T05:50:39Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > No, I’m not making that point, you need a cite for your assertion that the Stasi or KGB had more success. But in reality you are just tap dancing in an attempt to distract others into not noticing that one huge component of your position is a fantasy. > > The Gestapo failed with torture when compared to the ways they usually relied on getting information. I need to prove that the KGB and the Stasi were effective at “breaking” suspects. Thanks for giving me a great laugh. Anyway I’m glad with your “I’m not making that point” that you’re conceding that interrogators employed by US law enforcement agencies in the US have been less successful than interrogators employed by the KGB, the Stasi, the Gestapo etc. Up till then you appeared to be aggressively in denial of reality. Perhaps if you’d met people who’d been tortured, as I have, you wouldn’t be so sure it didn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/208 "2011-05-13T05:55:31Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You seriously think that the LAPD has been more successful at getting gangmembers to flip on one another than the Gestapo was at getting members of the French resistance to give up members or the KGB to get captured dissidents to cough up the names of other dissidents? > **[5 Myths About Torture and Truth](https://rsismilitarystudies.wordpress.com/2009/12/11/5-myths-about-torture-and-truth/)** > > Something that colleague Dick Bitzinger unearthed, some time back … 5 Myths About Torture and Truth Myths About Torture and Truth By Darius Rejali Washington Post, Sunday, December 16, 2007; … > [@](#): > > It’s surprising how unsuccessful the Gestapo’s brutal efforts were. They failed to break senior leaders of the French, Danish, Polish and German resistance. **I’ve spent more than a decade collecting all the cases of Gestapo torture “successes” in multiple languages; the number is small and the results pathetic, especially compared with the devastating effects of public cooperation and informers.** Yes, you are continuing to tap dance around that. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Damn, next you’re going to ask me to prove that water is wet. The results of the Gestapo when using torture where pathetic, so yes, it leads one to conclude that you do need a cite. Mind you, I do think that you are comparing apples and oranges when you are using the LAPD. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/209 "2011-05-13T05:56:06Z")
> [@Ograbme](#): > > See also: prayer, faith healing, rain dances. You made this same comment hours ago and it is still as stupid now as it was then. Please stop insulting the people I know who’ve been tortured who think it was effective. Also, it’s extremely arrogant for you to think you’re a better judge of how effective torture is than agents of the KGB and the Stasi. What makes you think you’re more qualified? Have you conducted any interrogations or talked to any victims of torture? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/210 "2011-05-13T05:58:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I need to prove that the KGB and the Stasi were effective at “breaking” suspects. > > Thanks for giving me a great laugh. On the contrary, I’m the one laughing as you are demonstrating to all that you have noting to support what you are saying. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Anyway I’m glad with your “I’m not making that point” that you’re conceding that interrogators employed by US law enforcement agencies in the US have been less successful than interrogators employed by the KGB, the Stasi, the Gestapo etc. > > Up till then you appeared to be aggressively in denial of reality. > > Perhaps if you’d met people who’d been tortured, as I have, you wouldn’t be so sure it didn’t work. As the researcher pointed out he “spent more than a decade collecting all the cases of Gestapo torture “successes” in multiple languages; the number is small and the results pathetic, especially compared with the devastating effects of public cooperation and informers.” It is clear that you need a cite to support your say so’s. Denying that just helps my position. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/211 "2011-05-13T05:59:51Z")
[quote=“GIGObuster, post:208, topic:580487”] > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You seriously think that the LAPD has been more successful at getting gangmembers to flip on one another than the Gestapo was at getting members of the French resistance to give up members or the KGB to get captured dissidents to cough up the names of other dissidents? > > [5 Myths About Torture and Truth | Military Studies at RSIS](http://rsismilitarystudies.wordpress.com/2009/12/11/5-myths-about-torture-and-truth/) > > Yes, you are continuing to tap dance around that. > The results of the Gestapo when using torture where pathetic, so yes, it leads one to conclude that you do need a cite. Mind you, I do think that you are comparing apples and oranges when you are using the LAPD. Exactly how am I “comparing apples to oranges” when I compare the LAPD and the Gestapo. I’m comparing an organization which uses “normal interrogation techniques” versus one that doesn’t. Beyond that, if you really think the KGB, the Stasi, and the Gestapo weren’t effective then you are aggressively in denial of reality. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/212 "2011-05-13T06:05:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Exactly how am I “comparing apples to oranges” when I compare the LAPD and the Gestapo. You answer that here: > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m comparing an organization which uses “normal interrogation techniques” **versus one that doesn’t**. And that is why you are really the one unable to find a cite for what you are claiming. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Beyond that, if you really think the KGB, the Stasi, and the Gestapo weren’t effective then you are aggressively in denial of reality. Nope, you are denying the reality that the Gestapo was more successful thanks to regular and illegal ways to obtaining information (the illegal ways that did not use torture) Once torture was widely used by the Gestapo thanks to the desperation brought by the loss of competent interrogators due to war, the results were pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/213 "2011-05-13T06:10:54Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You answer that here: > > And that is why you are really the one unable to find a cite for what you are claiming. > Nope, you are denying the reality that the Gestapo was more successful thanks to regular and illegal ways to obtaining information (the illegal ways that did not use torture) Once torture was widely used by the Gestapo thanks to the desperation brought by the loss of competent interrogators due to war, the results were pathetic. Ok, so then you are saying that the Gestapo has been less successful than the LAPD at getting information out of suspects? Can you please show me evidence to document that the LAPD has been more successful at going after the Bloods and the Crips? Even the research paper that you’re waving around admits that the Gestapo crushed the French resistance which took them a couple of years whereas the LAPD hasn’t been able to do that to gangs despite decades of work. Sorry, you’ve lost the argument. Stop insulting the people I know who’ve been tortured and testify to it’s effectiveness and just say we shouldn’t engage in torture because it’s wrong. It’s a far more courageous stand and doesn’t insult the victims of torture. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/214 "2011-05-13T06:20:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, so then you are saying that the Gestapo has been less successful than the LAPD at getting information out of suspects? You are welcome to find a good way to compare such disparate organizations with different goals. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Sorry, you’ve lost the argument. [You are not even wrong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong). > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Stop insulting the people I know who’ve been tortured and testify to it’s effectiveness and just say we shouldn’t engage in torture because it’s wrong. The plural of anecdote is not data. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s a far more courageous stand and doesn’t insult the victims of torture. Appealing to emotion is not logical at all. > **[Does torture work?](https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/nov/04/2)** > > Debates about the ethics of torture are all very well, but does it even work in the first place? > [@](#): > > The Intelligence Science Board are entrusted with the task of providing scientific advice to the United States intelligence community. In 2006 they produced their study on ‘Educing Information’, a collection of 11 papers studying various aspects of the science and art of interrogation. The authors of this document make the same point that I opened this article with: > > > [@](#): > > > > ``` > > Listening to the post-9/11 debate over guidelines for the interrogation of terrorist suspects, one could easily conclude that coercive methods are not only effective, but also substantially more effective than non-coercive methods in obtaining actionable intelligence from resistant sources. Even those opposed to the use of coercive methods fail to challenge this premise, exclusively focusing their arguments instead on the legal and moral issues at stake. (p130) > > > > ``` > > And this is surprising, because it’s such a weak premise. For the sake of completeness and balance it would be nice at this point to be able to show and discuss some evidence that favours the use of torture. I can’t, because in reality, as the report notes, and as I found myself as I trawled the archives searching for material for this piece: > > > [@](#): > > > > ``` > > **The scientific community has never established that coercive interrogation methods are an effective means of obtaining reliable intelligence information.(p130)** > > > > ``` > > In spite of decades of use, and ample opportunity to gather statistics, there just isn’t any scientific evidence beyond a few dubious anecdotes to show that torture works. Torture is an extreme method, and before we even reach the ethical and moral debate over its use, the effectiveness of it must be demonstrated to some reasonable degree. The burden of proof lies with the people who seek to torture. Any trials would of course be deeply unethical, but it’s not like they don’t have plenty of past experience to draw data from. > > I’m not fundamentally opposed to the use of torture, but it has to be justified. **If future governments seeking to continue to use it cannot meet the most basic requirement of showing that it has worked, then they have lost the debate.** ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/215 "2011-05-13T06:24:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, so then you are saying that the Gestapo has been less successful than the LAPD at getting information out of suspects? > > Can you please show me evidence to document that the LAPD has been more successful at going after the Bloods and the Crips? > > Even the research paper that you’re waving around admits that the Gestapo crushed the French resistance which took them a couple of years whereas the LAPD hasn’t been able to do that to gangs despite decades of work. > > Sorry, you’ve lost the argument. > > Stop insulting the people I know who’ve been tortured and testify to it’s effectiveness and just say we shouldn’t engage in torture because it’s wrong. > > It’s a far more courageous stand and doesn’t insult the victims of torture. You. Have. _Nothing_. You flail, you screech, you yell, you point wildly all over the place. You make pathetic attempts to divert attention away from the _fact_ that you can’t back up your claims with cites. If I can provide a cite that water is wet, will you either back up your claims, or admit that you can’t? ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/216 "2011-05-13T06:26:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Even the research paper that you’re waving around admits that the Gestapo crushed the French resistance which took them a couple of years whereas the LAPD hasn’t been able to do that to gangs despite decades of work. Was this because of torture or because of other reasons? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/217 "2011-05-13T06:34:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Even the research paper that you’re waving around admits that the Gestapo crushed the French resistance which took them a couple of years whereas the LAPD hasn’t been able to do that to gangs despite decades of work. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*\* > Even Hitler’s notorious secret police got most of their information from public tips, informers and inter-agency cooperation. _That was still more than enough_ to let the Gestapo decimate anti-Nazi resistance in Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, France, Russia and the concentration camps.\*\* Your position is really silly when even your “gotcha” attempts are not even that, everyone can see that you completely misinterpreted that line as supportive of your point when in reality it says the opposite of what you are claiming. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/218 "2011-05-13T08:29:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Really, I remember hearing that the Gestapo was very good at getting captured members of the French, Dutch, Norwegian and other resistance groups to talk. > > Where’ve you heard otherwise? Cite? Here’s mine that says otherwise: > [@](#): > > 1 Torture worked for the Gestapo. > > Actually, no. Even Hitler’s notorious secret police got most of their information from public tips, informers and interagency cooperation. That was still more than enough to let the Gestapo decimate anti-Nazi resistance in Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, France, Russia and the concentration camps. > > Yes, the Gestapo did torture people for intelligence, especially in later years. But this reflected not torture’s efficacy but the loss of many seasoned professionals to World War II, increasingly desperate competition for intelligence among Gestapo units and an influx of less disciplined younger members. (Why do serious, tedious police work when you have a uniform and a whip?) It’s surprising how unsuccessful the Gestapo’s brutal efforts were. They failed to break senior leaders of the French, Danish, Polish and German resistance. I’ve spent more than a decade collecting all the cases of Gestapo torture “successes” in multiple languages; the number is small and the results pathetic, especially compared with the devastating effects of public cooperation and informers. > > SOURCE: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/13/AR2007121301303.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/13/AR2007121301303.html) I also noted Germany’s “Master Interrogator” who had great success and never used abuse to gain information. > [@](#): > > Hanns-Joachim Gottlob Scharff (December 16, 1907 – September 10, 1992) was a German Luftwaffe interrogator during the Second World War. He has been called the “Master Interrogator” of the Luftwaffe and possibly all of Nazi Germany; he has also been praised for his contribution in shaping U.S. interrogation techniques after the war. Merely an Obergefreiter (the equivalent of a senior lance corporal), he was charged with interrogating German-captured American fighter pilots during the war after his becoming an interrogation officer in 1943. He is highly praised for the success of his techniques, especially considering he never used physical means to obtain the required information. Scharff’s interrogation techniques were effective enough that he was occasionally called upon to assist other German interrogators in their questioning of bomber pilots and aircrews, including those crews and fighter pilots from countries other than the United States. Additionally, Scharff was charged with questioning many V.I.P.s (Very Important Prisoners) that funneled through the interrogation center, namely senior officers and world-famous fighter aces. > > After the end of World War II, Scharff was invited by the United States Air Force to give lectures on his interrogation techniques and first-hand experiences. The U.S. military later incorporated Scharff’s methods into its curriculum at its interrogation schools. Many of Scharff’s methods are still taught in US Army interrogation schools. > > SOURCE: [Hanns Scharff - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/219 "2011-05-13T08:51:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Cite? > > Here’s mine that says otherwise: > I also noted Germany’s “Master Interrogator” who had great success and never used abuse to gain information. Doh! I see what I posted was already provided and I missed it. My bad…sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/220 "2011-05-13T10:15:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Stop insulting the people I know who’ve been tortured and testify to it’s effectiveness and just say we shouldn’t engage in torture because it’s wrong. Why don’t you stop throwing out this straw man? No one has made the claim that torture is not “effective” at what it does–inflicting grievous pain and harm on people. The claim is that while it sometimes has gotten people to give up information that they would normally hide, it also gets them to give up false information, saying anything the torturers want to hear to escape the pain. No one you know has been insulted by any post, here, (except, perhaps, yours, since you appear to wish to rationalize your acquaintances’ experience in favor of their abusers). Your comparison of resistance movements to gangs fails on the fact that the LAPD is still bound by rules of law in rgards to actions they can take against gangs, while the various secret police agencies were able to simply take and hold (or kill) anyone about whom they had a suspicion, (regardless of whether they then tortured them). You have also consistently repeated the assertion that the secret police were successful without actually providing any support for that claim. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=12)