# Did waterboarding help kill Bin Laden? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487 "2011-05-02T16:54:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/221 "2011-05-13T11:50:40Z")
John McCain (who knows something about torture) made [this speech](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I94Yb4KUic&feature=player_embedded) on the Senate floor yesterday. Here’s a quote: > [@](#): > > With so much misinformation being fed into such an essential public debate as this one, I asked the Director of Central Intelligence, Leon Panetta, for the facts. And I received the following information: > > “The trail to bin Laden did not begin with a disclosure from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who was waterboarded 183 times. We did not first learn from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed the real name of bin Laden’s courier, or his alias, Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti — the man who ultimately enabled us to find bin Laden. The first mention of the name Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, as well as a description of him as an important member of Al-Qaeda, came from a detainee held in another country. The United States did not conduct this detainee’s interrogation, nor did we render him to that country for the purpose of interrogation. We did not learn Abu Ahmed’s real name or alias as a result of waterboarding or any ‘enhanced interrogation technique’ used on a detainee in U.S. custody. None of the three detainees who were waterboarded provided Abu Ahmed’s real name, his whereabouts, or an accurate description of his role in Al-Qaeda. > > “In fact, not only did the use of ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed not provide us with key leads on bin Laden’s courier, Abu Ahmed; it actually produced false and misleading information. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed specifically told his interrogators that Abu Ahmed had moved to Peshawar, got married, and ceased his role as an Al-Qaeda facilitator — which was not true, as we now know. All we learned about Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti through the use of waterboarding and other ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ against Khalid Sheik Mohammed was the confirmation of the already known fact that the courier existed and used an alias. > > “I have sought further information from the staff of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and they confirm for me that, in fact, the best intelligence gained from a CIA detainee — information describing Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti’s real role in Al-Qaeda and his true relationship to Osama bin Laden — was obtained through standard, non-coercive means, not through any ‘enhanced interrogation technique.’ > > “In short, it was not torture or cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of detainees that got us the major leads that ultimately enabled our intelligence community to find Osama bin Laden. I hope former Attorney General Mukasey will correct his misstatement. It’s important that he do so because we are again engaged in this important debate, with much at stake for America’s security and reputation. Each side should make its own case, but do so without making up its own facts. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/222 "2011-05-13T12:46:20Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Why don’t you stop throwing out this straw man? No one has made the claim that torture is not “effective” at what it does–inflicting grievous pain and harm on people. The claim is that while it sometimes has gotten people to give up information that they would normally hide, it also gets them to give up false information, saying anything the torturers want to hear to escape the pain. No one you know has been insulted by any post, here, (except, perhaps, yours, since you appear to wish to rationalize your acquaintances’ experience in favor of their abusers). Actually, several people have claimed that “torture” without exactly defining what it is, gets worse results than “normal interrogation techniques” and have claimed that “normal interrogation techniques” get better results. I simply pointed out that if that were true then agencies that use “normal interrogation techniques” then FBI would have a higher success rate than the Gestapo at getting people to talk. To your credit, you’re admitting they don’t and you then proceed to torpedo the argument that “normal interrogation techniques” are more effective than “torture” by saying the reason that the LAPD isn’t as effective is that they are “bound by rules of law”. In short, by your own admission, their “interviews” would be far more effective if they weren’t bound by the rule of law. In fact, you’ll note that the only person who’s pointed to an example of “normal interrogation techniques” working was Mach Truck and he even admitted that A) there’s no evidence that the Luftwaffe interrogator he referred to in wikipedia was more successful than the Gestapo and B) that he used techniques that are illegal under the Army field manual(telling people if they didn’t give him the information he needed they’d be killed or tortured) and would be considered torture. > [@](#): > > You have also consistently repeated the assertion that the secret police were successful without actually providing any support for that claim. You’re asking an Iranian to prove that SAVAK was effective? The answer is that everyone I’ve talked to who was “interviewed” by SAVAK members talked and gave the information the SAVAK members wanted to hear. Is torture alway effective? No, thankfully not. However, that hardly means it’s ineffective and you’ll notice that while some people have produced evidence to suggest that the Gestapo wasn’t as successful as some might have thought, no one has provided evidence that their American and British contemporaries got better results. I don’t think anyone disputes that most people captured by them spilled their guts whereas few of the Germans captured by the British or the Americans did and please don’t try to bring up “Tin Ear” Stephens because what he did would certainly have been considered torture had it been done to American POWS. > [@](#): > > No one you know has been insulted by any post, here, (except, perhaps, yours, since you appear to wish to rationalize your acquaintances’ experience in favor of their abusers). I most certainly am not. I’m taking them at their word. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/223 "2011-05-13T12:56:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Cite? > > Here’s mine that says otherwise: > > I also noted Germany’s “Master Interrogator” who had great success and never used abuse to gain information. First of all, the only way you can argue that Scharff didn’t engage in torture was if you take the Jack Bauer line of thinking that lying to people and telling them they’ll be tortured or killed if they don’t talk isn’t torture. Now, perhaps you think threatening Gitmo prisoners with being turned over to the ISI or the Egyptian Military if they don’t spill their guts isn’t torture, but I think it is and I’m pretty sure most human rights organizations do. Secondly, the opponents of the Gestapo certainly thought they were effective and when push comes to shove everyone seems to admit that even if the Gestapo was less effective than some thought, that it was more effective than police agencies using “normal interrogation techniques”. Now, people have been claiming that “torture” isn’t effective and that most “interrogators” claim that “normal interrogation techniques” are more effective, but that’s clearly not what countless intelligence agencies think and the same interrogators who claim that “torture doesn’t work” when pushed to describe what does work start describing “psychological pressure tactics” which would be considered torture by just about every human rights organization on the planet. Finally, if you really think that it’s unfair to compare the Gestapo to the LAPD, ok, who talked at a greater rate, members of the SOE or the OSS captured by the Gestapo or members of the IRA captured by British military intelligence. I think we all know the answer to that. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/224 "2011-05-13T12:59:17Z")
> [@Skip](#): > > John McCain (who knows something about torture) made [this speech](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I94Yb4KUic&feature=player_embedded) on the Senate floor yesterday. Here’s a quote: > [@](#): > > “I have sought further information from the staff of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and they confirm for me that, in fact, the best intelligence gained from a CIA detainee — information describing Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti’s real role in Al-Qaeda and his true relationship to Osama bin Laden — was obtained through standard, non-coercive means, not through any ‘enhanced interrogation technique.’ I wonder what he means by “standard, non-coercive means”. Somehow I suspect that if we found out what such means were, we’d question the idea that they were “non-coercive.” ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/225 "2011-05-13T13:08:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Finally, if you really think that it’s unfair to compare the Gestapo to the LAPD, ok, who talked at a greater rate, members of the SOE or the OSS captured by the Gestapo or members of the IRA captured by British military intelligence. > > I think we all know the answer to that. What’s the answer? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/226 "2011-05-13T13:42:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually, several people have claimed that “torture” without exactly defining what it is, gets worse results than “normal interrogation techniques” and have claimed that “normal interrogation techniques” get better results. > > In fact, you’ll note that the only person who’s pointed to an example of “normal interrogation techniques” working was Mach Truck and he even admitted that A) there’s no evidence that the Luftwaffe interrogator he referred to in wikipedia was more successful than the Gestapo and B) that he used techniques that are illegal under the Army field manual(telling people if they didn’t give him the information he needed they’d be killed or tortured) and would be considered torture. No, I simply said I wasn’t commenting on the Gestapo’s effectiveness. And I only said THAT in response to your mis-characterization of my post. As for point B, we don’t know exactly what Hans Scharff said other than the suggestion that his prisoners might be handed over to the Gestapo. I’ve indulged you in your speculation that he might have been more specific than that. I started out thinking you might be arguing in good faith, but this is the second time you have rather fancifully re-interpreted things I’ve said. Please stop. The motives of some in this thread are becoming rather murky to me. Seems like they would rather win a semantic battle more than anything else. Well, if it helps move people toward the position that we shouldn’t be treating others cruelly I’m happy to let them “win”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/227 "2011-05-13T14:31:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I simply pointed out that if that were true then agencies that use “normal interrogation techniques” then FBI would have a higher success rate than the Gestapo at getting people to talk. Cite that the Gestapo, _using torture_, was more effective in gathering accurate information. Hell, how about a cite for _any_ of your claims so far? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/228 "2011-05-13T14:35:53Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Now, perhaps you think threatening Gitmo prisoners with being turned over to the ISI or the Egyptian Military if they don’t spill their guts isn’t torture, but I think it is and I’m pretty sure most human rights organizations do. Cite? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Secondly, the opponents of the Gestapo certainly thought they were effective and when push comes to shove everyone seems to admit that even if the Gestapo was less effective than some thought, that it was more effective than police agencies using “normal interrogation techniques”. Cite? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Now, people have been claiming that “torture” isn’t effective and that most “interrogators” claim that “normal interrogation techniques” are more effective, but that’s clearly not what countless intelligence agencies think and the same interrogators who claim that “torture doesn’t work” when pushed to describe what does work start describing “psychological pressure tactics” which would be considered torture by just about every human rights organization on the planet. Cite? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Finally, if you really think that it’s unfair to compare the Gestapo to the LAPD, ok, who talked at a greater rate, members of the SOE or the OSS captured by the Gestapo or members of the IRA captured by British military intelligence. Why don’t you tell us, and provide a cite to back it up? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I think we all know the answer to that. Not until you provide a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/229 "2011-05-13T14:53:04Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Good advice for you. When you post nonsense\* as though it is true, (without even botherinbg with a citation for your claim), there is no reason to believe that you are arguing in good faith, although I doubt that you would actually feel better admitting the truth. > It was the Bush administration that chose to lump all interrogation methods under the euphemism “enhanced interrogation” without distinguishing between torture and non-torture. The OP specifically mentioned torture, (waterboarding), and you have not really made any effort to distinguish between various methods. There is no evidence in this thread that you are after “truth.” > > - Among specifics: instructions for interrogators to refrain from torture is not simply a guideline for “grunts in the field,” it was the specific set of instructions for guys in G2 and S2 whose job it was to interrogate prisoners over extended periods. Pretending that only untrained “grunts” were given those instructions indicates a clear disregard for evidence or “truth.” Please. I’ve been arguing in good faith throughout this whole thread. It is you and others who have been (i) insisting I am making a claim I am not making, (ii) insisting that I provide a cite for that claim I’m not making, and (iii) insisting (repeatedly) that I ignore facts simply because I don’t agree with your opinion. Also, I love how you don’t get on Lobohan’s ass for trolling when he just repeats himself without addressing anything I’ve said and makes broad and grandiose claims without providing cites for them, while I have maintained a consistent position and explained it ad nauseum to people who seem to willfully refuse to understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/230 "2011-05-13T14:58:42Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > No, I simply said I wasn’t commenting on the Gestapo’s effectiveness. And I only said THAT in response to your mis-characterization of my post. As for point B, we don’t know exactly what Hans Scharff said other than the suggestion that his prisoners might be handed over to the Gestapo. I’ve indulged you in your speculation that he might have been more specific than that. > > I started out thinking you might be arguing in good faith, but this is the second time you have rather fancifully re-interpreted things I’ve said. Please stop. > > The motives of some in this thread are becoming rather murky to me. Seems like they would rather win a semantic battle more than anything else. Well, if it helps move people toward the position that we shouldn’t be treating others cruelly I’m happy to let them “win”. Mack, when someone says, “If you don’t tell me what I want to hear, I’ll turn you over to the Gestapo” they are saying, “tell me what I want to know or I’ll have you tortured.” In short, Scharff was behaving no differently than US interrogators telling suspects that they’d be turned over to the Saudi intelligence or the ISI if they didn’t talk. There is a word for such behavior. Torture. In short, the case of Scharff proves just how effective torture can be and how effective it can be to be part of a military with an organization like the Gestapo. Let’s not try and argue that torture doesn’t work by redefining things that clearly are torture as “psychological pressure techniques” or to use the phrase used earlier “non-coercive methods.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/231 "2011-05-13T15:01:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Mack, when someone says, “If you don’t tell me what I want to hear, I’ll turn you over to the Gestapo” they are saying, “tell me what I want to know or I’ll have you tortured.” > > In short, Scharff was behaving no differently than US interrogators telling suspects that they’d be turned over to the Saudi intelligence or the ISI if they didn’t talk. > > There is a word for such behavior. Torture. > > In short, the case of Scharff proves just how effective torture can be and how effective it can be to be part of a military with an organization like the Gestapo. > > Let’s not try and argue that torture doesn’t work by redefining things that clearly are torture as “psychological pressure techniques” or to use the phrase used earlier “non-coercive methods.” Please provide a cite for organizations that agree with your rather tortured definition of “torture”. Please provide a cite for _any_ of your claims so far in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/232 "2011-05-13T15:06:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Please provide a cite for organizations that agree with your rather tortured definition of “torture”. > Please provide a cite for _any_ of your claims so far in this thread. Huh, you think US interrogators threatening to turn people over to the Saudis to be tortured aren’t engaging in torture? You also think most human rights organizations don’t consider it torture? Ok, check out Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, CAIR and similar organizations. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/233 "2011-05-13T15:11:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Cite?Cite?Cite?Why don’t you tell us, and provide a cite to back it up?Not until you provide a cite. You need a “Cite” to prove the British had a hard time getting captured IRA men to talk? Well the phrase “common knowledge” comes to mind, but since you’re demandingit read Tim Pat Coogan’s The IRA. He’s written extensively about the Troubles. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/234 "2011-05-13T15:23:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh, you think US interrogators threatening to turn people over to the Saudis to be tortured aren’t engaging in torture? > > You also think most human rights organizations don’t consider it torture? > > Ok, check out Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, CAIR and similar organizations. it’s _your_ claim that they agree with your definition of torture, so it is _your_ responsibility to provide the cite. I believe that you know that such a cite doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/235 "2011-05-13T15:27:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You need a “Cite” to prove the British had a hard time getting captured IRA men to talk? That is not what I asked a cite for, and you damn well know it. This cheap trick of yours is getting tedious. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well the phrase “common knowledge” comes to mind, but since you’re demandingit read Tim Pat Coogan’s The IRA. He’s written extensively about the Troubles. No, absolutely not. Again, I ask you to provide cites for your many claims in this thread. Hell, try to provide a cite for at least _one_ of your claims in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/236 "2011-05-13T15:35:59Z")
> [@Skip](#): > > What’s the answer? I don’t think he has a good one, I see that now **Ibn Warraq** is torturing logic by insisting that the quote dealing with the gestapo supports his position when it does not. He also deftly avoided dealing with the reported pointing at scientific sources reporting that there is no good evidence supporting the levels of effectiveness that many supporters of water-boarding and other torture are attributing to it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/237 "2011-05-13T15:37:05Z")
Why is Tim Pat Coogan not considered a worthwhile cite? He’s an acknowledged expert on the Troubles? Does that mean I can’t cite Bernard Lewis or Albert Hourani when discussing Islamic history? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/238 "2011-05-13T15:40:25Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I don’t think he has a good one, I see that now **Ibn Warraq** is torturing logic by insisting that the quote dealing with the gestapo supports his position when it does not. So then you think threatening to have people maimed or killed if they don’t talk isn’t torture? Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch disagree. Please explain why the US isn’t engaging in a form of torture when it threatens to turn people over to the ISI if they don’t give their American interrogators the information they want to hear. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/239 "2011-05-13T15:44:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why is Tim Pat Coogan not considered a worthwhile cite? > > He’s an acknowledged expert on the Troubles? > > Does that mean I can’t cite Bernard Lewis or Albert Hourani when discussing Islamic history? You haven’t cited _anybody_ yet. Why can’t you? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/240 "2011-05-13T15:45:11Z")
All right, all right! You are totally correct, in every respect, every jot and tittle, just stop, please, please stop! AAAAAaaaaaarrrrgh! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=13)